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moral equivalence

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    moral equivalence

    According to the guilt ridden liberals on this site the killing of children by Israeli troops whilst "defending themselves" is morally on the same level as suicide bombers who walk on to a bus with the deliberate intention of killing civilians, that include children. Fine

    Therefore, correct me if I am wrong, the US and UK troops who invaded Iraq and "accidentally" killed children during the course of their invasion are equally guilty as terrorist suicide bombers who have been killing Iraqi civilians (including children) on a day to day basis.

    Saddam of course is no worse than coalition troops or their leaders because in killing 5000 kurdish men women and children horribly with mustard gas, he was only killing people, just as the Americans and British are.

    So let us take this moral equivalence "argument" to its logical conclusion, which is to remove the concept of "intent" away from the equation (which in law would manifest itself by categorising manslaughter and murder as the same).

    So according to the twisted logic of our left wing guilt merchants the killing of 6 million Jews by Hitler using all means on in particular women and children, was no better or no worse than the British/allied bombing of German cities during the second world war?

    The problem with guilt is that it is entirely destructive, not because people get on and deal with it themselves, but because they impose it upon everyone else, even if it means destroying others. Take the UK for example. Our liberals feel so guilty that in order not to offend those who we feel sorry for (in other words patronise) we break down all the things that made us feel good about ourselves, all the things that have happened to create the wonderful country that we have.

    We change our laws to accommodate unreasonable behaviour from others
    We allow others to be racist but not our own race.
    We change our language (no more chairmen, just "chairs")
    We remove words like "terror" from our language
    We ban foxhunting yet we allow others to kill animals in inhumane ways for personal pleasure.
    We play down our history.
    We denigrate our own religion and culture
    We sneer at the rich whilst handing out free money to feckless chavs
    We have rich pop stars who make everyone else give money to Africa when they themselves have millions that they would not dream of giving away.
    We have the same pop stars courted by politicians and given knighthoods without any care or concern as to what happens to the money that we give.
    We pour scorn on the richest country in the world
    and we sneer cynically on Israel.

    The reason that these immigrants come here? it is because they want to be part of our society and enjoy Britain for what it is. They do not want to hear this patronising self loathing bulltulip. They want to feel that they are part of a strong confident and proud nation. If the liberals didnt spend their lives undoing alll the things that makde the UK "Great" (and no spod I have not just returned from the pub) then the mosques would have Union Jacks flying out of them (as the stars and stripes do in mosques in the USA)
    Let us not forget EU open doors immigration benefits IT contractors more than anyone

    #2
    We change our laws to accommodate unreasonable behaviour from others
    We allow others to be racist but not our own race.
    We change our language (no more chairmen, just "chairs")
    We remove words like "terror" from our language
    We ban foxhunting yet we allow others to kill animals in inhumane ways for personal pleasure.
    We play down our history.
    We denigrate our own religion and culture
    We sneer at the rich whilst handing out free money to feckless chavs
    We have rich pop stars who make everyone else give money to Africa when they themselves have millions that they would not dream of giving away.
    We have the same pop stars courted by politicians and given knighthoods without any care or concern as to what happens to the money that we give.
    We pour scorn on the richest country in the world
    and we sneer cynically on Israel.
    Stolen from the 2005 New Labour policy documents.

    Comment


      #3
      No supporter of Israel. If I were Palestinian I would feel perfectly justified in blowing up Israeli citizens and cannot see any real moral distinction between that and what we did to Dresden. (Which I totally supported as a legitimate means to an end incidentally) The only practical distinction is that we killed far more women and kids than the Palestinians have ever managed.

      Other than that small point, I mostly agree with the tenor of your comments. The double standards we feel obliged to adopt by political correctness are insane. Everyone is entitled to their own culture except us white British. We are not prepared to stand up for our own beliefs. Tolerance of harmless eccentricity or purely private foibles/practices is a fine thing. Tolerance of beliefs which are actively hostile to one's own is sheer stupidity.

      Since you mention foxhunting (again). I would have to also agree that hypocrisy is at its highest with respect to environmental concerns. I must be this site's foremost tree hugger but would I let a lot of rare bats live in my attic crapping all over my odds and sods? You must be joking!

      As usual though, you greatly oversimplify the motives of those you disagree with. Like many others I was extremely pro-American before Bush came along with his simplistic Christian right motivations. I probably will be again after he has gone. Like may others, I am at least as pro British/Western values as you are. Like many others, I am very much in favour of military action when there is a legitimate national interest or clear goal (eg Afghanistan) but I saw none in Iraq.

      It is a pity you spoil generally sensible posts with such a black and white, them or us, view of the world.
      bloggoth

      If everything isn't black and white, I say, 'Why the hell not?'
      John Wayne (My guru, not to be confused with my beloved prophet Jeremy Clarkson)

      Comment


        #4
        Guilt

        Originally posted by xoggoth
        No supporter of Israel. If I were Palestinian I would feel perfectly justified in blowing up Israeli citizens and cannot see any real moral distinction between that and what we did to Dresden. (Which I totally supported as a legitimate means to an end incidentally) The only practical distinction is that we killed far more women and kids than the Palestinians have ever managed.

        Other than that small point, I mostly agree with the tenor of your comments. The double standards we feel obliged to adopt by political correctness are insane. Everyone is entitled to their own culture except us white British. We are not prepared to stand up for our own beliefs. Tolerance of harmless eccentricity or purely private foibles/practices is a fine thing. Tolerance of beliefs which are actively hostile to one's own is sheer stupidity.

        Since you mention foxhunting (again). I would have to also agree that hypocrisy is at its highest with respect to environmental concerns. I must be this site's foremost tree hugger but would I let a lot of rare bats live in my attic crapping all over my odds and sods? You must be joking!

        As usual though, you greatly oversimplify the motives of those you disagree with. Like many others I was extremely pro-American before Bush came along with his simplistic Christian right motivations. I probably will be again after he has gone. Like may others, I am at least as pro British/Western values as you are. Like many others, I am very much in favour of military action when there is a legitimate national interest or clear goal (eg Afghanistan) but I saw none in Iraq.

        It is a pity you spoil generally sensible posts with such a black and white, them or us, view of the world.
        Xog,

        You and I are very similar in our political beliefs, but you dislike me so much you cannot bear to agree with me. however it is you more than anyone here who does infact share my ideals. The fundamental difference between you and I is that you feel guilt where I do not. You are desperatly clinging to liberal indoctrination by remaining devoted to the PC concept that Israel is an evil state, you cannot bring yourself to sympathise with them even though they are a proud democracy surrounded by extremists with no intention to co-exist with them.
        So every activity that the Israelis undertake to defend their freedom you, like many others condemn. The truth is that they are an extraordinarily courageous race surrounded by cowardly dictators who control their people by focusing hate on Israel. Israel on rhe other hand is a democracy, and contrary to popular leftie opinion is accountable as a nation to the world at large, In other words they can be trusted.
        Unfortunately the liberal left enjoy patronising the very people who stand for the old racist, sexist and nihilistic attitudes that they pretend to stand for... How many liberal western leftie women sympathise wioth the Taliban for example? when the Taleban are themselves the antithesis of freedom of women?
        So you equate the bombing of Dresden with the activities of suicide bombers? In which case I put it to you that the bombing of Dresden, the bombing of Israeli women and children (and why not men??) at bus stops is no different from Hitlers policy of extermination of the Jews.
        Xog you are just a lilly livered coward who has no guts, no fight. You are a little man who would bend with whoever is in power.

        I am certainly not black and white in my views ( as opposed to you who believes that a killing is a killing regardless of intent), but I do have an understanding of human nature and a preparedness to make decisions about what is right and what is wrong. You on the other hand are a hostage to political correctness who lacks the intellect to see the contradictions between your ideals and your guilt. In other words you are an impressionable fool.
        Last edited by DodgyAgent; 29 July 2005, 21:49.
        Let us not forget EU open doors immigration benefits IT contractors more than anyone

        Comment


          #5
          You have a natural home at Harry's place dodgy

          http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/

          you are not alone

          Comment


            #6
            blogger

            Originally posted by Crazyhorse
            You have a natural home at Harry's place dodgy

            http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/

            you are not alone
            Crazy horse, I love it. I wish I was as eloquent in my prose.
            Let us not forget EU open doors immigration benefits IT contractors more than anyone

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by DodgyAgent
              According to the guilt ridden liberals on this site the killing of children by Israeli troops whilst "defending themselves" is morally on the same level as suicide bombers who walk on to a bus with the deliberate intention of killing civilians, that include children. Fine

              etc. etc.
              You are seemingly in such a mood for an argument that you have made up imaginary opponents and have started arguing with yourself.

              Anyway, I couldn't actually be bothered to read your post but I think the bottom line is that you appear to have painted yourself into a corner in the past in regards to your support of the war in Iraq and instead of admitting you are wrong you just won't give up attempting to make it look like you are some kind of all-knowing genius.

              Comment


                #8
                Recently I've been so depressed about all of this crap, I'm left wing and yet I found myself arguing mostly with lefties I thought it was me, thought I was the only one. Then I stumbled onto Harry's place and a whole bunch of links to like minded people.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by oliver
                  You are seemingly in such a mood for an argument that you have made up imaginary opponents and have started arguing with yourself.

                  Anyway, I couldn't actually be bothered to read your post but I think the bottom line is that you appear to have painted yourself into a corner in the past in regards to your support of the war in Iraq and instead of admitting you are wrong you just won't give up attempting to make it look like you are some kind of all-knowing genius.
                  Well maybe Oliver you could try and read some of my posts and deal with them accordingly. After all given that they have such little substance (i.e mad opinionated ramblings) then someone of your considerable intellect should have little difficulty in consigning them to the "WTF" does he know dustbin?,

                  As fat as the war is concerned, your tiny brain has to see my views as either supporting the war or not. I am afraid dear simpleton, it is not that simple
                  Let us not forget EU open doors immigration benefits IT contractors more than anyone

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Leftie

                    Originally posted by Crazyhorse
                    Recently I've been so depressed about all of this crap, I'm left wing and yet I found myself arguing mostly with lefties I thought it was me, thought I was the only one. Then I stumbled onto Harry's place and a whole bunch of links to like minded people.
                    And why are you left wing when every institute and ideal of the left consistently fails the very people that it stands for?

                    I rather think that you are consumed by guilt (I hope not envy)
                    Last edited by DodgyAgent; 30 July 2005, 08:48.
                    Let us not forget EU open doors immigration benefits IT contractors more than anyone

                    Comment

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