The Lady's not for turning !!!

[Peoplesoft bloke]

OK peoplesoftbloke. Yes come to think of it my last comment was a tad pompous.

Please look at what you said earlier in the thread. To me these are sweeping statements with no shred of evidence to support them. What facts are you offering to support your "view"?

Ok, I'll bite, let's try an experiment

Increased taxes -

Increase in VAT in first budget from 8 - 15%

"Tax freedom day" championed by the Adam Smith Institute (hardly a gang of lefties) was latest in the year under guess whom?

"Taxes on income and production, which rose by 0.6 percentage points of NNI in 1979, jumped by 2.5 percentage points — equivalent to a nine-day extension to the taxpayer’s servitude to the government — in 1980."

Failure to index tax rates (the familiar fiscal drag concept) in 1980.
Abolition of mortgage interest reliefs and other tax reliefs.

Accountancy age, not known for its left leanings, has this analysis

"Between 1978/79 (the last year of the 1974/79 Labour government) and 1990/91 (the last year of Lady Thatcher's government), the tax/GDP ratio jumped from 33.3% to 36.3%, a rise broadly equivalent to 10p on the basic rate of income tax.

The tax burden thus rose decisively under Lady Thatcher (both on average and in absolute terms), compared with the previous Labour government."

http://www.accountancyage.com/accoun...ies-statistics

That's just for starters, there is more.

[Lucy]

Yes we know how you work, now trot off !

Trot off?

[Peoplesoft bloke]

She sold off burdensome companies and turned them from high public subsidy dependancy into taxpayers, thus giving net benefit over the long-term to the exchequer.
Take British Airways for instance who I used to work for before privatisation. They were incredibly inefficient and grossly overstaffed, but nowadays are a very profitable, efficient company paying taxes instead of reaping government subsidies. Thatcher should be applauded!!

This would be the Terminal 5 BA?, the thousands of missing bags BA?

[Cyberman]

Sounds like an argument to re-nationilise the railways. Cost far more to the taxpayer now.


Thank god the Thatcher years are over!

Since New Lie effectively renationalised Railtrack into Network Rail the burden on the taxpayer has risen by multi-billions. This surely proves the failure of nationalisation, yet again.
With private funds going into the privatised railways the burden on the taxpayer is far less than it would otherwise be.

[Lucy]

Since New Lie effectively renationalised Railtrack into Network Rail the burden on the taxpayer has risen by multi-billions. This surely proves the failure of nationalisation, yet again.
With private funds going into the privatised railways the burden on the taxpayer is far less than it would otherwise be.

Don't go getting all logical on him now, logic is a stranger to bagpuss.

[hyperD]

Thatcher's view of the world seemed to be that there is indeed "no such thing as society"

This sort of pavlovian regurgitation of MSM soundbite does not add value to what is, bar a little bit of sniping here and there, an interesting discussion.

Let me quote what she said in full so you can read the full context of what she was saying:

"I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."

Prime minister Margaret Thatcher, talking to Women's Own magazine, October 31 1987


This "no such thing as society" misquote has become fabled in the left wing press and socialist folklore as a misguided proof that Thatcher's policies were solely for the rich individual.

As much as some of Thatcher's policies had her faults which we see in hindsight, there's no doubt that she and her cabinet showed strong leadership when the economy was screwed in '79 - something that is once again so lacking with this incumbant bunch of Liebour invertebrates.

Also, like snaw says, it's funny once people grow up and have families, how the dim and distant ways of socialism don't seem so right somehow...

[BrilloPad]

This would be the Terminal 5 BA?, the thousands of missing bags BA?

At least the taxpayer did not pick up the tab.

[BrilloPad]

Ok, I'll bite, let's try an experiment

Increased taxes -

Increase in VAT in first budget from 8 - 15%

"Tax freedom day" championed by the Adam Smith Institute (hardly a gang of lefties) was latest in the year under guess whom?

"Taxes on income and production, which rose by 0.6 percentage points of NNI in 1979, jumped by 2.5 percentage points — equivalent to a nine-day extension to the taxpayer’s servitude to the government — in 1980."

Failure to index tax rates (the familiar fiscal drag concept) in 1980.
Abolition of mortgage interest reliefs and other tax reliefs.

Accountancy age, not known for its left leanings, has this analysis

"Between 1978/79 (the last year of the 1974/79 Labour government) and 1990/91 (the last year of Lady Thatcher's government), the tax/GDP ratio jumped from 33.3% to 36.3%, a rise broadly equivalent to 10p on the basic rate of income tax.

The tax burden thus rose decisively under Lady Thatcher (both on average and in absolute terms), compared with the previous Labour government."

http://www.accountancyage.com/accoun...ies-statistics

That's just for starters, there is more.

Only correcting the mistakes of 1974-1979.

How long will it take to correct 1997-20xx ?

[DodgyAgent]

Ok, I'll bite, let's try an experiment

Increased taxes -

Increase in VAT in first budget from 8 - 15%

"Tax freedom day" championed by the Adam Smith Institute (hardly a gang of lefties) was latest in the year under guess whom?

"Taxes on income and production, which rose by 0.6 percentage points of NNI in 1979, jumped by 2.5 percentage points — equivalent to a nine-day extension to the taxpayer’s servitude to the government — in 1980."

Failure to index tax rates (the familiar fiscal drag concept) in 1980.
Abolition of mortgage interest reliefs and other tax reliefs.

Accountancy age, not known for its left leanings, has this analysis

"Between 1978/79 (the last year of the 1974/79 Labour government) and 1990/91 (the last year of Lady Thatcher's government), the tax/GDP ratio jumped from 33.3% to 36.3%, a rise broadly equivalent to 10p on the basic rate of income tax.

The tax burden thus rose decisively under Lady Thatcher (both on average and in absolute terms), compared with the previous Labour government."

http://www.accountancyage.com/accoun...ies-statistics

That's just for starters, there is more.

well done! an effort to validate an argument at last. OK so lets say we accept that the tax burden rose under Thatcher, but do your statistics account for the fact that there was suddenly more people working in productive jobs? Given that the highest tax rate under the previous administration was 90% it is interesting that with the top rate nearly halved the tax income should increase.

this then begs the question of why you hate Thatcher so much. On the one hand she was freeing the entrepreneurial spirit of the UK from the grip of nationalisation and the Trade Unions, on the other she was increasing tax revenues to be spent by the state. So which aspect of this do you so hate? is it the taking of too much tax, or is it the freeing of capitalism from the grips of socialism.?

[Peoplesoft bloke]

well done! an effort to validate an argument at last. OK so lets say we accept that the tax burden rose under Thatcher,

Thanks so much - I made a claim, then pointed to the facts and you've come close to accepting I was correct when I pointed out that Thatcher increased taxes.

but do your statistics account for the fact that there was [sic] suddenly more people working in productive jobs?

Not mentioned, are you saying that's a fact (that there were more people in productive jobs)? If so I know you're going to want to back it up with the details.

Given that the highest tax rate under the previous administration was 90% it is interesting that with the top rate nearly halved the tax income should increase.

A conclusion you may have reached by your extensive analysis of the facts - so let's see the evidence.

this then begs the question of why you hate Thatcher so much.

I've mentioned plenty of reasons, but you just dismissed them as emotive cliches.

On the one hand she was freeing the entrepreneurial spirit of the UK from the grip of nationalisation and the Trade Unions, on the other she was increasing tax revenues to be spent by the state. So which aspect of this do you so hate? is it the taking of too much tax, or is it the freeing of capitalism from the grips of socialism.?

Except it wasn't the freeing of capitalism from the grips of socialism - it was raising cash to pay the unemployment bills by selling us something we'd already paid for and far from a free market paradise it was the replacement of useless public rip-off monopolies with useless rip-off private ones. It's the con and misrepresentation I hate.

As for tax - I was just as much against the almost doubling of VAT then as I am against the hitting of the poorly paid bu Browns messing with 10p tax.

On tax by the way, you don't mention VAT, or the abolition of reliefs, just the top rate - paid by a tiny minority.