Police Harassment

[BrilloPad]

I have just read the website you mention. Extremely disturbing stuff.

If you met him you would be even more disturbed - one of the nicest guys I know.

Though this is not the most disturbing case - that involved a current neighbour whose brother had 2 kids then split from his partner. Eldest was disabled - he kept tell SS and courts she was unfit but he got no contact and accused of malicious allegations. His partner put disabled daughter in special bath seat - did not strap her in. She drowned! No charges were made.

The youngest child she tried to take to Zimbabwe! I help him get a prohibited steps order banning her from going. Believe it or not Zimbabwe is in the Hague Convention so enforceable...

[AtW]

you really are totally disjointed from reality...

What evidence do you have to suggest that the judicial system in the UK is not independent?

My observation is that a lot of cases go against police, CPS and Govt - very high profiles ones where Govt pressure is certainly at the highest possible level, yet they (Govt) lose. That's a clear sign of independence - if you look at court systems in countries where they are certainly not independent (say nazi germany or soviet russia) then you will see that pretty much no decision go against Govt.

[Ardesco]

What evidence do you have to suggest that the judicial system in the UK is not independent?

My observation is that a lot of cases go against police, CPS and Govt - very high profiles ones where Govt pressure is certainly at the highest possible level, yet they (Govt) lose. That's a clear sign of independence - if you look at court systems in countries where they are certainly not independent (say nazi germany or soviet russia) then you will see that pretty much no decision go against Govt.

Ever been to court regarding a speeding offence? They tend to ignore your basic rights, force you to incriminate yourself and fine you a large amount of money if you refuse to.

Independent my arse!

[Gonzo]

That's rubbish assertion.

Is there any other type?

While I appreciate that things are not the same here (yet) as they are in Russia - there was a programme on BBC World last month going through the case of a Russian bloke (can't remember his name) who was completely stitched up by the government via the legal process, Judges decide the verdict behind closed doors, publication of the reasons for it can be delayed indefinitely etc, legally a government would be able to move this country to the same situation if they were determined to.

They would not get away with doing it in one fell swoop, it would be spotted and there would be uproar. But chipping away, bit by bit, could achieve it if we are not careful.

The independence of this country's judiciary is set by precedent, not by statute, and so is always vulnerable.

[Paddy]

[QUOTE=AtW;495556]Well, if it's illegal why won't he sue them? The courts in this country are pretty much independent, so if he is in the right he can find justice there.
QUOTE]

Congratulations AtW you win the prize for being the most naive person in the country. The judicial system is not only bias towards the police and authority but also corrupt throughout. It is worse than China.

I have seen dozens of cases both civil and criminal where it was blatantly obvious that the Judge was bias or in the pay of one party.

Even if you appeal against a decision and you ask for a transcript; the judge has a right to edit the transcript even if his version varies from the official tape recorded version. I had first hand experience of this when a judge interrupted me in a civil case and he refused to listen. The tape recording clearly showed this but the judge edited it on the “Official” final transcript.

[AtW]

I was in court once - small claims and I'd say the judge did a good job, not because I won just his arguement seems logical. I also follow court cases in the papers and find that a lot of decisions are pretty well balanced and fair - in a minority of cases when I disagree with the decision of a judge that decision is mostly affected by Govt guidelines that make it hard to send people to jail because Govt does not want to invest money into those.

I don't know how good courts in China are, but my good guess would be that they are close to those found in Soviet Russia - and I know those courts - they are terrible and people who claim UK courts are somehow biased simply don't have a clue about what happens in other countries.

Maybe UK courts are worse than those in Germany or France - I don't know to be honest, but I can compare local courts with what I have seen in Soviet Russia and can state categorically that the justice in the UK (comparing to them) is pretty damn perfect.

As for speeding cases then situation there is simple - it's a civil case on the balance of probabilities, and I am pretty damn sure people who get caught for speeding were actually speeding - I know I was when I got done for it, even though I completely disagree with the law which forces people to incriminate themselves, this is the bad law rather than bad justice system, and given that we know that most of them were actually speeding it's not exactly the worst sign of the system being somehow not independent.

[AtW]

While I appreciate that things are not the same here (yet) as they are in Russia - there was a programme on BBC World last month going through the case of a Russian bloke (can't remember his name) who was completely stitched up by the government via the legal process

Soviet Russia gave birth to a term "telephone justice" - during 80s officials from the Govt were picking phone and calling judges to tell them how to make decisions - and judges were making them just like that. This is the case of lack of independence and complete control over judiciary from Govt. The same thing is happening again in Russia but this is not the case here - there are plenty of big high profile cases that go against Govt. That's a clear sign of independence to me.

[Paddy]

I was in court once - small claims and I'd say the judge did a good job, not because I won just his arguement seems logical. I also follow court cases in the papers and find that a lot of decisions are pretty well balanced and fair - in a minority of cases when I disagree with the decision of a judge that decision is mostly affected by Govt guidelines that make it hard to send people to jail because Govt does not want to invest money into those.

I don't know how good courts in China are, but my good guess would be that they are close to those found in Soviet Russia - and I know those courts - they are terrible and people who claim UK courts are somehow biased simply don't have a clue about what happens in other countries.

Maybe UK courts are worse than those in Germany or France - I don't know to be honest, but I can compare local courts with what I have seen in Soviet Russia and can state categorically that the justice in the UK (comparing to them) is pretty damn perfect.

As for speeding cases then situation there is simple - it's a civil case on the balance of probabilities, and I am pretty damn sure people who get caught for speeding were actually speeding - I know I was when I got done for it, even though I completely disagree with the law which forces people to incriminate themselves, this is the bad law rather than bad justice system, and given that we know that most of them were actually speeding it's not exactly the worst sign of the system being somehow not independent.

Regarding speeding cases I heard a Judge sum up saying “Although there is doubt in the police evidence we can’t have every Tom Dick and Harry contesting the police therefore I have to find you guilty.”

My concern is with cases of murder where it is obvious that the evidence is fixed and the it obvious the Judge knows. There are also many civil cases where the judge is paid off by one party or another. The main problem is that most Judges are part time and are also serving solicitors and barristers. There is a huge conflict of interest.

Small claims are not too bad but I know of one case when the claimant asked the court manager to appoint a particular judge. Even though the claimant was claiming for an none existent bogus company the judge ruled in favour of the claimant. The judge turned out to also be a solicitor to a firm that represented the claimant up until a week before the case. The claimant is now wanted by the police for money laundering but they are also having difficulty with the CPS as they are reluctant to prosecute.

Having gone through hell helping someone get off trumpet up charges by the police I have no faith in the system. It cost £12,000 to hire an ex-police officer as a private detective to uncover the fact that the police had hidden evidence from the court. It was obvious to anyone that this happened in the original case but the truth came out on appeal.

[AtW]

Regarding speeding cases I heard a Judge sum up saying “Although there is doubt in the police evidence we can’t have every Tom Dick and Harry contesting the police therefore I have to find you guilty.”

Fine, appeal then. He did not say he'd kill your family if you did, did he? There ways to deal with these people - you need to appeal and you will win in the end. Btw, what you say is not sign of lack of independence at all - you may say the decision is unjust, which it probably is.

There are also many civil cases where the judge is paid off by one party or another.

I don't believe it is systematic - bride taking in this country is not exactly a common thing.

It was obvious to anyone that this happened in the original case but the truth came out on appeal.

What this has got to do with independence of courts from Govt?

[BrilloPad]

I don't believe it is systematic - bride taking in this country is not exactly a common thing.

I know of a couple of cases. it certainly happens.