British Jews

[Cowboy Bob]

The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians). (alfatiha 1:7)

Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers, (altawba 9: 14)

And yet another translation

Fight against them so that Allâh will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people, (9:14)

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans * wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); (altawba 9:19)

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst." (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)

[The Lone Gunman]

The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians). (alfatiha 1:7)

Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers, (altawba 9: 14)

And yet another translation

Fight against them so that Allâh will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people, (9:14)

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans * wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); (altawba 9:19)

It is 9:5 not 9:19.

Yes, but as I said, the Koran makes it clear that these sections apply to those who are making war or persecuting Muslims. You need to look at the verses preceding and following to make sense of it.

[9.1] (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Apostle towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.
[9.2] So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.
[9.3] And an announcement from Allah and His Apostle to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Apostle are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.
[9.4] Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[9.6] And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.

[Diver]

Too subtle for you?

The clue was dead centre!

There are over 70 translations of the Quran/Ku'ran.

You cannot quote from it without specifying which translation.

What a Muslim child is taught, may not be from the same Quran or even a translated and published version.

Therein lies the conundrum.

[Stan]

Thats the problem with all religions, its down to which nutter translates or interprets them.

What surprises me is how quickly them peace lovers were at organsizing protests over some funny cartoons YET we dont hear a peep from them after attempted murders from members of their own faith.

Thats because they are evil nutters, the good uns are at home wishing the evil nutters would just STFU.

See, the thing is although two people might have the same colour or religion they are actually different people I realise this may come as a shock to your world view but it is true.

[xoggoth]

I used to be one of those who would priggishly proclaim that there was a difference between anti-semitism and anti-Zionism.

That is still technically true of course, but having looked a little more into the history of the creation of the Jewish state and the pathological hatred of it by Arabs I am inclined to think that if you scratch many anti-zionists you will find an anti-semite.

[Diver]

The word "Jew" has become widely used to denote simultaneously a universal faith and a particular nationality, Anti-Zionism should not be equated with anti-Semitism, the racist ideology directed against Jews as Jews, majority of Semites are Arabs, converts to Judaism, mostly the Khazars.

Zion (Hebrew: צִיּוֹן, tziyyon; Tiberian vocalization: tsiyyôn; transliterated Zion or Sion) is a term that most often designates the Land of Israel and its capital Jerusalem. The word is found in texts dating back almost three millennia. It originally referred to a specific mountain near Jerusalem (Mount Zion), on which stood a Jebusite fortress of the same name that was conquered by David and was named the City of David.

[Old Greg]

I used to be one of those who would priggishly proclaim that there was a difference between anti-semitism and anti-Zionism.

That is still technically true of course, but having looked a little more into the history of the creation of the Jewish state and the pathological hatred of it by Arabs I am inclined to think that if you scratch many anti-zionists you will find an anti-semite.

I am an anti-zionist. I believe the state of Israel is founded on ethnic cleansing and illegally occupies Palestinian land.

I am not an anti-semite.

[xoggoth]

As I said Greg technically true so I believe you, I used to hold just the same opinion as you, but I was referring specifically to the Palestinians.

Partition of what had all been part of the Ottoman empire was probably the best of a bad job in the circumstance. The Jews got 6%, no more than their numbers in that region suggested, but it was too much for the Arabs who immediately launched the first of several wars to to drive them out.

Yes, there were Arab refugees from what became Israel but just as many Jews driven out of what is now Jordan, nobody remembers them because Israel absorbed them, unlike Palestinians they did not spend the next 60 years whining and living on foreign handouts in "refugee" camps and raising their children with no more ambition than to blow civilians up in a crowded market place.

Some of the language we hear from too many Arabs and Islamists is not simply that of those with a justifiable grievance but often goes much further into a malignant form of predudice.

[Diver]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/afp/2007070...m-6058bda.html

[Clippy]

I used to be one of those who would priggishly proclaim that there was a difference between anti-semitism and anti-Zionism.

That is still technically true of course, but having looked a little more into the history of the creation of the Jewish state and the pathological hatred of it by Arabs I am inclined to think that if you scratch many anti-zionists you will find an anti-semite.

Sorry Xog, think you have got this all wrong.

The two can be mutually exclusive and it's an easy (and weak) argument to say someone who is anti-Zionist is a Semite.

Further, I would imagine the same argument would hold true of many Israeli's
i.e. a deep seated hate of Palestinians but, as far as I am aware, there is no similar term as anti-semitism that is available for them to use.