Britain's most dangerous roads

[shoes]

You are an unpredictable danger to other road users. How are we supposed to know which rules you will be using?

It's a fair point. What Im doing is not all that far removed from the norm. All I do is not pull over to the far left lane very often, and undertake when its sensible to do so whilst bearing in mind the driver I am passing is unlikely to be expecting it. These are not terribly uncommon things on the roads, it's not like Im reversing the wrong way down the far right overtaking lane because I firmly believe everyone should be doing it.

[chicane]

If the rule is "drive on the left except when overtaking" should you even have to indicate your intention to move left?

In my opinion, anything that leads to better communication between drivers whilst of the road will lead to less accidents.

But my comment was specifically in the context of Vectraman's suggestion that undertaking should be allowed - in this scenario, left indicating would be crucial.

[Bagpuss]

I love the term "good progress". The rest of us drive dangerously fast, but the police and advanced motorists "make good progress".



Yes, but then if you don't know about this stuff you'll have no idea what to do if it does happen. Which applies to 99% of drivers. The track, or airfield training is the best place, but still if you push a little bit on the roads you get a feel for it.



There's an argument for not steering into a skid, as if you don't you'll probably do a neat 180, whereas if you do, catch it then get flung round in the opposite direction it'll tend to throw you off the road. I did it on track, before I took some lessons and got better.

You shouldn't need to steer into a skid anyway. Not because you're going slowly and sensibly, but because steering into it implies you've had to react and if you do everything smoothly and progressivly and anticipate the results you'll never get to that point. I'm sure you'd agree.

I agree, Most people over-correct when steering into a skid. If you go on any performance driving course they will teach you the car is balanced to be neutral. By giving the car input you make matters worse. The best way is to put the car in neutral and let go of the controls, the car will correct itself. Of course the steering wheel shuffle brigade don't understand the physics of the situation. And the bolocks he wrote about never getting into a skid, never heard of oil on the road, snow, mud, wet weather?

[VectraMan]

But my comment was specifically in the context of Vectraman's suggestion that undertaking should be allowed - in this scenario, left indicating would be crucial.

I agree. Indicating is good.

They don't necessarily need to legalise overtaking on the left, just clarify the current rules - i.e. "traffic queues". It's allowed in a traffic queue, but nobody is very sure what that means. The rule should be if the lane to the right is slower than yours, then you can overtake on the left. That would reduce congestion, and stop all the stressed out miserable people gravitating to the outside lane.

You have the potential situation on the 5 lane bits of the M25 where there's somebody going slow in the outside lane, and the people on the inside lane have to slow down to avoid "undertaking" them, despite there being three whole empty lanes inbetween them. And that's insane.

[chicane]

You have the potential situation on the 5 lane bits of the M25 where there's somebody going slow in the outside lane, and the people on the inside lane have to slow down to avoid "undertaking" them, despite there being three whole empty lanes inbetween them. And that's insane.

At least on the motorways I drive (not familiar with the M25 thankfully), what you describe seems to be a well-established rule. During busy times, the rightmost lane is often the slowest moving lane, and nobody seems to be too concerned about driving faster in the middle.

Of course, in less busy times when there's the odd Benz/Ranger sitting in the rightmost lane at a constant 70, the rules are somewhat less defined...

[The Lone Gunman]

It's a fair point. What Im doing is not all that far removed from the norm. All I do is not pull over to the far left lane very often, and undertake when its sensible to do so whilst bearing in mind the driver I am passing is unlikely to be expecting it. These are not terribly uncommon things on the roads, it's not like Im reversing the wrong way down the far right overtaking lane because I firmly believe everyone should be doing it.

It does not matter what you believe. At present you are an unpredictable mobile chicane who forces all traffic to go around them. For your peace of mind you are narrowing the motorway off to one lane for faster drivers. You force other drivers to take action to avoid you so that you do not have to take action yourself.
Drive by the rules or get off the road.
Just because everybody does it does not make it right.
If all the other lane hoggers could learn to pass or pull over then the roads would be much easier to deal with.

[VectraMan]

I agree, Most people over-correct when steering into a skid. If you go on any performance driving course they will teach you the car is balanced to be neutral. By giving the car input you make matters worse. The best way is to put the car in neutral and let go of the controls, the car will correct itself.

I did the 1st Lotus/Car limits course (highly recommend that), and he got me to take a corner at 70mph with one finger on the wheel. The point was to prove that I was making it spin, whereas with only one finger you can see that the car sorts itself out. I'm not sure I'd want to let go of the wheel, but you get a feel for letting the car sort itself out and just guide it.

Of course the steering wheel shuffle brigade don't understand the physics of the situation.

And if you do get the classic RWD snap oversteer, there's no way you can shuffle the wheel through your hands fast enough. That's a terrible way to drive IMO.

[Bagpuss]

There's nothing more dangerous than people who stop at the end of slip roads. The people on the motorway need to make room.



I have to admit to driving too close a lot of the time, but it's at least in part because of 2. If you don't close right up, nobody will ever move out of the way ever.

I'm not saying people should stop, just remember it isn't a god given right to charge into the flow. Most people won't stop ever, if it's dangerous to slip in.
It also means nervous people sit in the middle lane.


I do over 20k miles a year, I drive quick but I never tailgate, if you apprach at speed, cars tend to move out of the way (unless it's a big merc). I never get so close as I can't see what's going on 1/2 mile up the road, that's why I always drop back from high sided vehicles. Keeping you distance is the best thing anyone can do to improve safety.

[Bagpuss]

Actaully I have a question for the advanced motorist. When overtaking they advise to pull out to see if overtaking is safe. What if you pulled out when it was unsafe?

[VectraMan]

I'm not saying people should stop, just remember it isn't a god given right to charge into the flow. Most people won't stop ever, if it's dangerous to slip in.
It also means nervous people sit in the middle lane.

Yes, but often you have no choice. Motoways are okay, because at worse you can take to the hard shoulder. There's some slip roads I use regularly on the A3 where you run out of road very fast and you don't get much time to look for traffic. So you either stop to have a good look, spend ages waiting, and then make a potentially very dangerous move slowly out into the fast traffic; or you go for it, get up to 70ish and dive into any gap you can. I think the latter is safer, but not really safe.

The people on the carrigeway have the benefit of being able to see. There's pleanty of warnings of junctions coming up; they should be expecting to see traffic joining. The one time I think middle laneing is justified is when approaching a slip road where there might be traffic joining.