£1,300,000,000,000 in debt

[scooterscot]

You speak as if it was a concious decision.

Much of UK manufacturing died through natural evolution. If it were possible for it to compete on a large scale today, we would be opening factories.

I don’t doubt core manufacturing died as a result of the economic circumstances of the times. It’s the speed at which it has occurred that alerts me, looking at the last 10 /15 years our country has lost so much skill, and now that skill in real demand. Where is it? Oh natural evolution I remember the balance sheet those past couple of years don’t look to good lets kill off the time honoured industry that’s severed us well for generations, with experience to boot. The decision not to support those long-standing industries was real enough, yet look how quickly we’ve rid ourselves of them. Who made that decision?

Sometimes I feel the country operates as if globalisation has already being achieved, and I’m not even a fan. We’re too dependent on others.

[sasguru]

I don’t doubt core manufacturing died as a result of the economic circumstances of the times. It’s the speed at which it has occurred that alerts me, looking at the last 10 /15 years our country has lost so much skill, and now that skill in real demand. Where is it? Oh natural evolution I remember the balance sheet those past couple of years don’t look to good lets kill off the time honoured industry that’s severed us well for generations, with experience to boot. The decision not to support those long-standing industries was real enough, yet look how quickly we’ve rid ourselves of them. Who made that decision?

Sometimes I feel the country operates as if globalisation has already being achieved, and I’m not even a fan. We’re too dependent on others.

I have a conflict here. I agree with most of what you say - yet this country has prospered in the long run by being flexible and going with the flow. Whatever the future holds, I still think being flexible and agile is the key to success. If we need to change, we can. Many countries are artificially propping up their manufacturing industry (France springs to mind). What is certain is we can't compete with the cheaper countries in manufacturing.
In any case I believe in the cyclical theory of history - we are currently going through a profoundly anti-scientific zeitgeist here and I hope it changes soon - CP Snow's famous dictum of a country split in 2 cultures comes to mind; the liberal intelligentsia currently rule the roost to the detriment of all.

I've just thought of 4 industries where were still world class: ship-building (although this is being whittled away), aerospace (ditto), pharmaceuticals (currently reasonably healthy) and of course the City.

[scooterscot]

How long has the long run actually been in place now, I wonder how experienced/stable the services sector actually is? How would we measure it?

I agree as a nation we are a flexible and agile heck it’s that attitude that wins me business time and time again, but I would not dream of forgetting how I got here. Knowledge that could be only gained on the shop floor you can’t teach that.

“What is certain is we can't compete with the cheaper countries in manufacturing.”

The country I’m working in does it… most of which is for export.

Our frigates will soon have made in China stamped on the back of them… half way down the river they’ll fall apart when they hit the first wave.

[AtW]

we are currently going through a profoundly anti-scientific zeitgeist here

Don't mention zeitgeist, he has got high enough post count without needing reason to post more

[wendigo100]

I don’t doubt core manufacturing died as a result of the economic circumstances of the times. It’s the speed at which it has occurred that alerts me, looking at the last 10 /15 years our country has lost so much skill, and now that skill in real demand. Where is it? Oh natural evolution I remember the balance sheet those past couple of years don’t look to good lets kill off the time honoured industry that’s severed us well for generations, with experience to boot. The decision not to support those long-standing industries was real enough, yet look how quickly we’ve rid ourselves of them. Who made that decision?

Sometimes I feel the country operates as if globalisation has already being achieved, and I’m not even a fan. We’re too dependent on others.

The problem was that it was longer that a couple of years. Some of those industries had been basket cases for decades. I remember when the miners union leaders were in Number 10 discussing UK economic policy over beer and sandwiches with Harold Wilson!

I don't know what you are suggesting we should have done. In 95% of cases, subsidising manufacturing industry didn't work.

Look at British Leyland. By the seventies their cars were mostly crap, and the most expensive to build in their sector, but they survived for 15 years like that. HMG eventually bit the bullet and pulled the plug.

The railways were nationalised in the forties and fifties, and they have never made a profit. They now consume more taxpayers money than ever. But we have to accept this because we cannot buy rail services from abroad.

If we've learned a lesson from past subsidised manufacturing industries, it is "don't do it". That "couple of years" soon stretches to five, then ten. They get into the comfort zone of handouts and simply end up worse.

[Rantor]

The problem was that it was longer that a couple of years. Some of those industries had been basket cases for decades. I remember when the miners union leaders were in Number 10 discussing UK economic policy over beer and sandwiches with Harold Wilson!

I don't know what you are suggesting we should have done. In 95% of cases, subsidising manufacturing industry didn't work.

Look at British Leyland. By the seventies their cars were mostly crap, and the most expensive to build in their sector, but they survived for 15 years like that. HMG eventually bit the bullet and pulled the plug.

The railways were nationalised in the forties and fifties, and they have never made a profit. They now consume more taxpayers money than ever. But we have to accept this because we cannot buy rail services from abroad.

If we've learned a lesson from past subsidised manufacturing industries, it is "don't do it". That "couple of years" soon stretches to five, then ten. They get into the comfort zone of handouts and simply end up worse.

Yes, I'll go along with all of that.

However, the year zero monetarist approach adopted between 79-83 went much further than that. This is farily well documented and various economic advisers (walters and all the chicago school mob IIRC) plus members of the cabinet havre gone record on this. No Falklands war and quite probably Michael Foot as PM - now there's a thought!

[Rantor]

The problem was that it was longer that a couple of years. Some of those industries had been basket cases for decades. I remember when the miners union leaders were in Number 10 discussing UK economic policy over beer and sandwiches with Harold Wilson!

I don't know what you are suggesting we should have done. In 95% of cases, subsidising manufacturing industry didn't work.

Look at British Leyland. By the seventies their cars were mostly crap, and the most expensive to build in their sector, but they survived for 15 years like that. HMG eventually bit the bullet and pulled the plug.

The railways were nationalised in the forties and fifties, and they have never made a profit. They now consume more taxpayers money than ever. But we have to accept this because we cannot buy rail services from abroad.

If we've learned a lesson from past subsidised manufacturing industries, it is "don't do it". That "couple of years" soon stretches to five, then ten. They get into the comfort zone of handouts and simply end up worse.

Yes, I'd go along with all of that.

However, the year zero monetarist approach adopted between 79-83 went much further than that. This is farily well documented and various economic advisers (walters and all the chicago school mob IIRC) plus members of the cabinet havre gone record on this. No Falklands war and quite probably Michael Foot as PM - now there's a thought!

[Troll]

“What is certain is we can't compete with the cheaper countries in manufacturing.”

If so how can Triumph motorcycles be built here now, but not apparently in the '70s, How is BMW able to manufacture in Germany?. We got shot of shipbuilding just in time to miss the Cruise Liner building boom & again how can Germany still make ships.
Rolls Royce Aerospace - should it now move it manufacturing core overseas to make further cost savings?

[zeitghost]

Don't mention zeitgeist, he has got high enough post count without needing reason to post more

<cough>

Wossat?

Did someone say something?

[The Master]

Surely you mean body count, not post count?