Housing Shortage

[Troll]

That's broadly true, isn't it?

It is also true that the circumstances that a person is born and brought up in obviously have a large bearing.

However that cannot be avoided unless you treat your population like battery hens, and to do that you've need something very different to a meritocracy.

There lies the path to Socialism...all a government can (and should) do is ensure everyone has the same chance of reaching adulthood (free healthcare) and has sufficient education to compete in the marketplace

[DodgyAgent]

I disagree, you are granted a basic level of education by the State - i.e. you should be able to read, write & calculate,these are the basic building blocks for anyone to succeed in the adult world.
As far as I am aware there are no impediments (and please point out any you are aware of) of people being allowed to be as successful as their natural talents allow - i.e. a meritocracy

"Should" is the key word. Your point makes an assumption that all schools provide basic services which they do not. Those that do, do so to differering standards. So although you are right to say that we live in a meritocracy some people have more merit than others which enables them to enjoy advantages over other people.

Let me ask you. If a former project manager calls you up to do a job without seeing anyone else then that is hardly making a decision on the merits of the strengths of others is it?

[wendigo100]

Let me ask you. If a former project manager calls you up to do a job without seeing anyone else then that is hardly making a decision on the merits of the strengths of others is it?

You've earned the trust of a former PM. Isn't that meritocracy at work?

If I like Mars bars, I don't sample two or three other chocolate bars every time I go into a shop to buy one.

[Causus Deli]

Let me explain. 90% is my estimate of immigrants who do not pay their way, it is based on the following information taken from Andrew Brownes assessment. Quote: Immigrants overall do pay more in tax than they receive in benefits and consume in public services, but only because immigrants from North America, Japan and the EU pay so much more than their fair share. Immigrants from the Third World—who make up the entire net immigration to the UK—are on average less well educated, suffer higher unemployment, claim more of most forms of benefits, make more demands on public services such as schools and hospitals, and almost certainly do not pay their way on average. There are no figures for the UK, but official studies in the US show that the average adult Mexican immigrant will consume throughout their life time $55,200 more in services than they contribute in taxes.

(This assessment was made in 2001 before the eastern EUs were included in the EU statement above).

CD: They do not pay their way on average, they have more children, they have more elderly parents who were brought here never having worked at all, they are less educated, they suffer high unemployment. The US data suggest that the average poorly educated immigrant consumes quite a bit more than they pay tax. UK data do not exist but surely the trend is there for all to see, or would you like to concentrate on my faults again? I think people would be best advised to open their eyes to what is happening. As I said a small proportion of immigrants from developed countries pay inordinate amounts that enable people to justify all immigration. We should run the UK like a business, would you have 2-3 top sellers in your business making you loads of dough and stop there or would you have 10 to get very little more?

Another important aspect is the importation of disease. The esteemed poster Bagpuss pointed this out a few days ago. We have imported most of our HIV (hetero), if I apply the rate of growth amongst the indigenous population over the last 10 years to our new cases. The HIV burden will be over 1 million people in just 20 years. At 15K a year to treat, 15 thousand million (15 billion a year), that will be pounds not chocolate buttons.

One doesn’t have to be an economist, mathematician or statistician to follow this, it just doesn’t make economic sense and of course the social consequences are for all to see already. If we get our own people to do these jobs we wouldn’t have to fork out dough for nowt for them also.

I got accused of being a wind up merchant yesterday, I think one of those is someone who comes back with no alternative information spending 30 seconds to conjure up a cheap shot and claim victory.

[Ardesco]

The glaring hole in this is that you have made up the figure of 90% and also this is NOT the USA!!

Immigration in the US is completely different to immigration in the UK.

If you are basing your arguments on the above there is no point discussing it with you, problems with Mexican immigrants has absolutely no relevance to the UK at all and eastern europe is not the same as mexico/cuba/etc.

[Causus Deli]

The glaring hole in this is that you have made up the figure of 90% and also this is NOT the USA!!

Immigration in the US is completely different to immigration in the UK.

If you are basing your arguments on the above there is no point discussing it with you, problems with Mexican immigrants has absolutely no relevance to the UK at all and eastern europe is not the same as mexico/cuba/etc.

The US data are just one small part of the overall evidence, which you conveniently pick on. None of this is certain, it’s an estimate, do you understand this concept? There is 40% unemployment in certain groups in certain areas do these people pay their way, do pensioner imports pay their way, do children? The answer is no they don’t. Does a black market worker who claims benefit pay their way?

There is no definitive answer, I have given a whole load of evidence and I get little back from you apart from this is not America. I know that, can you tell me why perhaps that poorly educated immigrants in the US should do worse/better/same than a similar person in the UK? Infact the only difference I can see if that healthcare is free here and so the cost of that is not born by the US in their case. This would tend to drive my arguments to concluding even worse than the US. Do you have anything else? Citing differences without consideration of how those differences are likely to effect assessments of a situation is not that helpful.

[Old Greg]

[QUOTE=Causus Deli]Let me explain. 90% is my estimate of immigrants who do not pay their way, it is based on the following information taken from Andrew Brownes assessment. Quote: Immigrants overall do pay more in tax than they receive in benefits and consume in public services, but only because immigrants from North America, Japan and the EU pay so much more than their fair share. Immigrants from the Third World—who make up the entire net immigration to the UK—are on average less well educated, suffer higher unemployment, claim more of most forms of benefits, make more demands on public services such as schools and hospitals, and almost certainly do not pay their way on average. There are no figures for the UK, but official studies in the US show that the average adult Mexican immigrant will consume throughout their life time $55,200 more in services than they contribute in taxes.

(This assessment was made in 2001 before the eastern EUs were included in the EU statement above).
QUOTE]
OK - 1st things 1st. Who is Andrew Browne? Is his assessment an academic paper or something similar? Or if not, what is it? It would be good to know the provenance of your information before starting to address your points (although God only knows why I'm bothering).

[Euro-commuter]

OK - 1st things 1st. Who is Andrew Browne? Is his assessment an academic paper or something similar? Or if not, what is it? It would be good to know the provenance of your information before starting to address your points (although God only knows why I'm bothering).

Somebody should. I can't be arsed today, but thanks

[Old Greg]

Somebody should. I can't be arsed today, but thanks

I wouldn't normally be @rsed but he strikes me as a closet fascist with an unhealthy interest in gay penguins if you know what I mean.

[Churchill]

It'll all be academic soon when the first cases of incurable TB* that kills you in a month start turning up...

(*not a joke by the way, this exists in Southern Africa).

Those bastard penguins!!! So damned cunning but oh so tasty!