Oh Dear: Is there any other country in Europe where this would cause outrage ?

[Old Greg]

1000 generations is a preposterous extrapolation of course, however a few generations, whatever, could be in some people’s lifetime. I don’t see any reason to change current estimates discussed in the absence of anything better, so unless you come up with something more than ‘why should it be the same in 5 generations’ then others are entitled to say ‘why should it not be’, is the current rate not the best estimate? This has been an important debate and long may we have them. There was nothing mentioned that was racist, the constant attacks on him rather than the subject did say something about the way it is these days. The constant taunting about Hitler, jews, holocaust, blacks etc was piss poor and beneath contempt. As a young parent I do worry about the future for my children but I worry more that we cannot have open debate without fear of being labelled. Without this we are surely in the hands of others with their agendas.

1st of all, I said 40 generations, not 1000 (1000 years). But your point still has validity - of course it's a preposterous extrapolation, but so is 5 generations, as a glance at any modelling by properly qualified academic demographer (where can we find one, I wonder) will show you.

As for the taunting, well to an extent, I'm having a laugh, it's a contractor's website after all.

But I don't make a habit of labelling anyone I disagree with a fascist and I use the word very deliberately for CD (I'm happy with the words neo-fascist, national socialist, and other terms which are to an extent used interchangeably nowadays). Now, you don't find many fascists who call themselves fascists nowadays so it needs a bit of digging and analysis. This is why I call him a fascist:

I won't dig up the manipulation of statistics for propaganda purposes - we've been through it already, and people can draw their own conclusions. I won't provide dozens of quotes that are anti-gay, anti-immigrant, anti-Islamic View - people can easily find their own if they don't remember. They don't make him a fascist - others will hold similar views and yet not be fascist. But they paint part of a picture (it's kind of like IR35 - there's no magic formula, but I'll do my best to paint a picture).

Some other quotes (selective, obviously as I'm not going to reproduce everything he's ever said).

'What they fail to say is that only small numbers of invaders actually stayed, nothing like the 12% and rising figure we have imported to date. So what anyway that was then and this is right now, affecting our lives right now, maybe not so much yours and mine yet but the poor unfortunates that socialists pretend to care about but in reality Marxists only care about using.'

The relevant views I'd like to pull out: anti-socialist, anti-marxist

'I appear to be the only socialist here.'

Now he claims to be a socialist

SASGuru 'I agree with most of the above. However i would also kick out all the feckless, lazy chavs, violent hooligans and drunks and associated scum of indigenous stock. Where could we send them? Do you reckon Australia would be a good place?'

CD 'This is the sickest, inhuman post even you have come up with. Your pathetic brown nosing and self congratulatory manner belies a serious lack of character and a traitorous frailty. These are our people you so easliy give up on, yet defend the immigrants taking their services and homes. Try coming up with some ideas for affecting a change in our own 'feckless' - stop their dough or someink. You are a shame to this country.'

This one is really interesting. He's right-wing (I suggest) but doesn't share the usual right-wing views about 'chavs' (funny, it's a word I would never use as well). If they are 'our own people' (I suggest code for white or indigenous) they should not be condemned but assisted even if at the bottom of the social pile. Opponents lack character and have 'traitorous frailty'.

View I'd like to highlight: the white/indigenous underclass must be helped. Those who disagree lack character and are traitorous.

'I am quite disgusted with the anti 'chav' thoughts people express, I would even say I have seen this often with foreign students and would not be surprised if the clear lack of patriotism herein is a reflection of an alien nature.'

Same as above. But as well as it being traitorous, it is alien (my take on this: nationally or racially alien).

'Assess what the extent is (sure I've said this before) and discourage segregation, sponging offof the state (that will be me and you indirectly) should be halted (despite what people say Pakistanis/Banglas have 3 times the unemployment rate as Caucasian), no arranged marriages with ISC people. No bleating about they haven't the opportunity, well if they don't speak the bl00dy language would you employ them? No foreign preachers and no sermons in anything but English. Gag lefty loonies who want to give our country away because they have some utopian ideal in mind that is simply not possible.'

I'd like to pick out the last bit in particular: 'Gag lefty loonies'. (What happened to freedom of speech I'd like to know?)

View I'd like to highlight: Leftwing opponents of his views must be denied freedom of speech.

So these are the components of the picture, I'll summarise:

Anti-gay
Anti-Islamic
Anti-immigrant
Anti-socialist
Anti-marxist
Claims to be a socialist (the only socialist on the site)
Fiercely defensive of the white/indigenous underclass - accuses those who are critical of them as lacking character, being traitorous or being alien.
Leftwing opponents should be gagged

Now, one or two of these do not a fascist make (otherwise we'd be knee deep on them here). But I only know one political philisophy that encompasses them.

The race, gay stuff is well known.
The virulent anti-left-wing views are well known. As is the desire to gag your opponents (sounds familiar from history to me)
And if you have this and call yourself a socialist, I'd suggest you're a national socialist (Nazi, anyone?)
And the national socialists/fascists see the white underclass as the material for their organised muscle - fascists offer them discipline, work, pride through identity and a sense of purpose. Those who disagree are traitors to the nation, race, Folk whatever.

That's why I call him a fascist. Others may disagree but it ain't idle name-calling.

Now, CD's a shame he's a 47 year old professor of mathematics called David, who has published academic research on these subjects, but doesn't want to share it.

Otherwise, he could be a 60 year old professor of demography called David Coleman, who has published many academic papers such as:

'Partner Choice and the growth of ethnic minority populations'
'The shape of things to come: world population to 2050'
'Who's afraid of low support ratios? A UK response to the UN Population Division report on 'Replacement Migration'. (Funnily enough, CD quotes in one of his post a UN report called 'Replacement Migration: is it a Solution to Declining and Ageing Population')

Sounds familiar to me and I would expect a little disguising. He wouldn't want these views to get back to his department, I expect. The familiarity is not just about Asian British population but it litters his posts:

'The population should be 30-40 million in this country'

It's only speculation but it sounds like David Coleman to me (although if it is the misuse of complext statisitics is particularly shocking). David Coleman has interesting extra-curricular activities:

He is advisor to MigrationWatch (which CD quotes) which is pretty notorious for its dodgy stats and soundbites.

He is a member and former Honorary Secretary of the Galton Institute (known up until 1989 as the Eugenics Society - nice guys!). They quote Sir Francis Galton on their website: '"Man is gifted with pity and other kindly feelings: he has also the power of preventing many kinds of suffering. I conceive it well within his province to replace Natural Selection by other processes that are more merciful and not less effective." Sir Francis Galton, 1908' Anyone with the slightest grasp of the history of eugenics can draw their own conclusions.

Now a Professor of Demography (particularly one embroiled in some kind of bizarre left/right spat at Oxford University) has to be careful what he says, but if he had an alter ego on a bulletin board, he could let his guard down a little. Give a fascist enough piano wire, and he might just hang himself.

[Old Greg]

Sort of agree there, though I interpret it slightly differently. What I see is that wages are too low.
Local population can not afford to work.
Incomers have much lower overheads so can take these low paid jobs.
As I have said befoe, if corporates were to lower their profit margins and pay better wages or spread their bonuses wider then more people could afford to work.
Remember "It's expensive being poor" attr T.V. Smith.

Well, perhaps we can sort of agree a bit more. I think Eastern European immigration may be keeping wage inflation at a lower level than it otherwise would have been. Whether this is a good thing or not depends on your perspective. But I suspect the real reason why East Europeans are getting the jobs is that they appear a lot more attractive than some British citizens who have been out of work for some time, may have poor education and perhaps some health problems. It would be interesting to get Dodgy's view.

[Rantor]

Well, perhaps we can sort of agree a bit more. I think Eastern European immigration may be keeping wage inflation at a lower level than it otherwise would have been. Whether this is a good thing or not depends on your perspective. But I suspect the real reason why East Europeans are getting the jobs is that they appear a lot more attractive than some British citizens who have been out of work for some time, may have poor education and perhaps some health problems. It would be interesting to get Dodgy's view.

Hmm.....seems to be gerring a bit Lord of the Flies in here again.

[Damp Cave]

.... Give a fascist enough piano wire, and he might just hang himself.

Do any of those traits make the points any less valid? The discussion was surely the best result of it all and as I said that must be a good thing. If he is as you say then surely you welcome the chance to expose his hideous ideas and lay the fallacies to rest? He is, he isn't a professor, I get lost. Surely if he is who you suspect then he would get the figures right and we should follow his teachings?

You clearly welcomed the opportunity to have an open discussion; perhaps you should not have if the ideas were so repulsive to you and so dangerous to all these impressionable contractors. As for the conradictions in his personality, perhaps that is just because he has personality issues?

[sasguru]

Surely if he is who you suspect then he would get the figures right and we should follow his teachings?

Are you serious about this statement?

[sasguru]

1st of all, I said 40 generations, not 1000 (1000 years). But your point still has validity - of course it's a preposterous extrapolation, but so is 5 generations, as a glance at any modelling by properly qualified academic demographer (where can we find one, I wonder) will show you.

As for the taunting, well to an extent, I'm having a laugh, it's a contractor's website after all.

But I don't make a habit of labelling anyone I disagree with a fascist and I use the word very deliberately for CD (I'm happy with the words neo-fascist, national socialist, and other terms which are to an extent used interchangeably nowadays). Now, you don't find many fascists who call themselves fascists nowadays so it needs a bit of digging and analysis. This is why I call him a fascist:

I won't dig up the manipulation of statistics for propaganda purposes - we've been through it already, and people can draw their own conclusions. I won't provide dozens of quotes that are anti-gay, anti-immigrant, anti-Islamic View - people can easily find their own if they don't remember. They don't make him a fascist - others will hold similar views and yet not be fascist. But they paint part of a picture (it's kind of like IR35 - there's no magic formula, but I'll do my best to paint a picture).

Some other quotes (selective, obviously as I'm not going to reproduce everything he's ever said).

'What they fail to say is that only small numbers of invaders actually stayed, nothing like the 12% and rising figure we have imported to date. So what anyway that was then and this is right now, affecting our lives right now, maybe not so much yours and mine yet but the poor unfortunates that socialists pretend to care about but in reality Marxists only care about using.'

The relevant views I'd like to pull out: anti-socialist, anti-marxist

'I appear to be the only socialist here.'

Now he claims to be a socialist

SASGuru 'I agree with most of the above. However i would also kick out all the feckless, lazy chavs, violent hooligans and drunks and associated scum of indigenous stock. Where could we send them? Do you reckon Australia would be a good place?'

CD 'This is the sickest, inhuman post even you have come up with. Your pathetic brown nosing and self congratulatory manner belies a serious lack of character and a traitorous frailty. These are our people you so easliy give up on, yet defend the immigrants taking their services and homes. Try coming up with some ideas for affecting a change in our own 'feckless' - stop their dough or someink. You are a shame to this country.'

This one is really interesting. He's right-wing (I suggest) but doesn't share the usual right-wing views about 'chavs' (funny, it's a word I would never use as well). If they are 'our own people' (I suggest code for white or indigenous) they should not be condemned but assisted even if at the bottom of the social pile. Opponents lack character and have 'traitorous frailty'.

View I'd like to highlight: the white/indigenous underclass must be helped. Those who disagree lack character and are traitorous.

'I am quite disgusted with the anti 'chav' thoughts people express, I would even say I have seen this often with foreign students and would not be surprised if the clear lack of patriotism herein is a reflection of an alien nature.'

Same as above. But as well as it being traitorous, it is alien (my take on this: nationally or racially alien).

'Assess what the extent is (sure I've said this before) and discourage segregation, sponging offof the state (that will be me and you indirectly) should be halted (despite what people say Pakistanis/Banglas have 3 times the unemployment rate as Caucasian), no arranged marriages with ISC people. No bleating about they haven't the opportunity, well if they don't speak the bl00dy language would you employ them? No foreign preachers and no sermons in anything but English. Gag lefty loonies who want to give our country away because they have some utopian ideal in mind that is simply not possible.'

I'd like to pick out the last bit in particular: 'Gag lefty loonies'. (What happened to freedom of speech I'd like to know?)

View I'd like to highlight: Leftwing opponents of his views must be denied freedom of speech.

So these are the components of the picture, I'll summarise:

Anti-gay
Anti-Islamic
Anti-immigrant
Anti-socialist
Anti-marxist
Claims to be a socialist (the only socialist on the site)
Fiercely defensive of the white/indigenous underclass - accuses those who are critical of them as lacking character, being traitorous or being alien.
Leftwing opponents should be gagged

Now, one or two of these do not a fascist make (otherwise we'd be knee deep on them here). But I only know one political philisophy that encompasses them.

The race, gay stuff is well known.
The virulent anti-left-wing views are well known. As is the desire to gag your opponents (sounds familiar from history to me)
And if you have this and call yourself a socialist, I'd suggest you're a national socialist (Nazi, anyone?)
And the national socialists/fascists see the white underclass as the material for their organised muscle - fascists offer them discipline, work, pride through identity and a sense of purpose. Those who disagree are traitors to the nation, race, Folk whatever.

That's why I call him a fascist. Others may disagree but it ain't idle name-calling.

Now, CD's a shame he's a 47 year old professor of mathematics called David, who has published academic research on these subjects, but doesn't want to share it.

Otherwise, he could be a 60 year old professor of demography called David Coleman, who has published many academic papers such as:

'Partner Choice and the growth of ethnic minority populations'
'The shape of things to come: world population to 2050'
'Who's afraid of low support ratios? A UK response to the UN Population Division report on 'Replacement Migration'. (Funnily enough, CD quotes in one of his post a UN report called 'Replacement Migration: is it a Solution to Declining and Ageing Population')

Sounds familiar to me and I would expect a little disguising. He wouldn't want these views to get back to his department, I expect. The familiarity is not just about Asian British population but it litters his posts:

'The population should be 30-40 million in this country'

It's only speculation but it sounds like David Coleman to me (although if it is the misuse of complext statisitics is particularly shocking). David Coleman has interesting extra-curricular activities:

He is advisor to MigrationWatch (which CD quotes) which is pretty notorious for its dodgy stats and soundbites.

He is a member and former Honorary Secretary of the Galton Institute (known up until 1989 as the Eugenics Society - nice guys!). They quote Sir Francis Galton on their website: '"Man is gifted with pity and other kindly feelings: he has also the power of preventing many kinds of suffering. I conceive it well within his province to replace Natural Selection by other processes that are more merciful and not less effective." Sir Francis Galton, 1908' Anyone with the slightest grasp of the history of eugenics can draw their own conclusions.

Now a Professor of Demography (particularly one embroiled in some kind of bizarre left/right spat at Oxford University) has to be careful what he says, but if he had an alter ego on a bulletin board, he could let his guard down a little. Give a fascist enough piano wire, and he might just hang himself.

That's an excellent analysis. If he is who you think, he made a good job of pretending to be otherwise.

[Old Greg]

Do any of those traits make the points any less valid? The discussion was surely the best result of it all and as I said that must be a good thing. If he is as you say then surely you welcome the chance to expose his hideous ideas and lay the fallacies to rest? He is, he isn't a professor, I get lost. Surely if he is who you suspect then he would get the figures right and we should follow his teachings?

You clearly welcomed the opportunity to have an open discussion; perhaps you should not have if the ideas were so repulsive to you and so dangerous to all these impressionable contractors. As for the conradictions in his personality, perhaps that is just because he has personality issues?

Fascists will make points which resound with people. I quoted Nick Griffin earlier - he knows that if Muslims are the enemy of the day, there's no point banging on about Jews. But fascists need to sound reasonable to get power - then we'll see their full agenda, and history teaches us it isn't a nice one.

Do I welcome the chance for the discussion? Well, not really - I'd rather he kept his views to himself, but I wouldn't attempt to infringe his freedom of speech - I doubt he'd afford others the same luxury given the chance.

Now the figures. If he is David Coleman, then he won't get them wrong accidentally. But they are wrong. Not just his dubious methodology but his sums ffs. It is a manipulation and on he can afford to make outside of academic confines as he's anonymous (assuming that he is who I think he sounds like.) As I said before, there's a mass of demographic academic papers out there which will tell you quite a different story.

The is he a professor / isn't he a professor thing went on because , I think, something didn't add up. And if he's actually a professor of demography, not of pure mathematics (although maybe he never quite said he was a professor of pure mathematics), that could be it.

I think there's a prett yrobust bunch of people here - not too impressionable. I think his ideas are repulsive and dangerous but that's freedom of speech and we should all support it.

And as for contradictions, I'm not sure what they are. If it's (I summarise): socialists are bad, socialists should be gagged, I'm the only socialist here. That's not a contradiction. It's a political riddle and the answer is: he's a national socialist.

[Old Greg]

That's an excellent analysis. If he is who you think, he made a good job of pretending to be otherwise.

Thanks - I suspect we'll never know.

[Bagpuss]

So to summarize should the non english speaking, feckless immigrants, get the council houses then?

[Old Greg]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

Pig's head on a stick...

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...






(* I fecking hate that book; did it for O level English Lit).

That should be enough to kill off any affection for a book.