Welcome to Gilead

[vetran]

Where did I say you did?

Why are you unable to respond to the argument - "you cannot force a person to use their body to keep someone or something else alive"?

I have never suggested that we force anyone to do anything.

[vetran]

Mental health challenges do not mean someone is certifiably insane and to state that we're saying everyone who has an abortion is insane says a heck of a lot about you.

Like pretty much everything, mental health is a scale. What's world ending to one person is just another Tuesday to someone else.

No-one sets out to have an abortion. As I said before, life happens and you can't always stop a pregnancy so the fall-back position is to abort if taking the pregnancy to full term would cause more harm.

99%

Luckily we have a fax machine in the mix.

[NotAllThere]

Sorry I couldn't answer you ...

I was not taking a side. No need to explain it to me. Just trying to demonstrate that others have different opinions that they also consider to be absolutely morally correct.

[NotAllThere]

Yes because sharing facts are mansplaining. Talking tulip and ignoring others is a feminine right.

Hey! Talking tulip and ignoring others is also a masculine right! Sexist pig.

[SueEllen]

I was not taking a side. No need to explain it to me. Just trying to demonstrate that others have different opinions that they also consider to be absolutely morally correct.

You gave me an argument that I had to have a think about plus remind myself why abortion became legal in mainland UK.

Vetran just started making sexist insults.

[vetran]

You gave me an argument that I had to have a think about plus remind myself why abortion became legal in mainland UK.

Vetran just started making sexist insults.

you opened the conversation with "because of your gender you have no right to an opinion in this matter" I pointed out this was sexist and incorrect as you became more and more like a Viz character I pointed that out as well.

[ladymuck]

~99% of abortions are made to protect the 'ex mothers' mental health those are the the facts. The percentage of abortions required after abuse is less than <5%. The percentage of pregnancies threatening the ex mothers health according to one Doctor and a fax machine is < 1%. Your argument was that abortions are for health or abuse reasons and the by choice abortions that make up 95%+ of not really human deaths were irrelevant. Luckily it seems we have changed your perception a little bit.

Changing tactics may change the number of unwanted pregnancies, but you don't want to listen. What is the harm in looking at the reasons why unwanted pregnancies happen and fixing those to avoid the real trauma that abortion causes.Improved education and contraception provision actually works in other countries.

I'm all for education but I don't see how restricting access to abortion and adding more regulation helps? What forms of abortion are you against?

The morning after pill (within 72 hours of unprotected sex)
Medical abortion (within the first 10 weeks)
Surgical abortion (after 10 weeks, up to whatever legal limit is in force)

[vetran]

I'm all for education but I don't see how restricting access to abortion and adding more regulation helps? What forms of abortion are you against?

The morning after pill (within 72 hours of unprotected sex)
Medical abortion (within the first 10 weeks)
Surgical abortion (after 10 weeks, up to whatever legal limit is in force)

Actually I never suggested restricting access. I talked about consideration and improvements in the process.

Chemical abortion is obviously the least invasive and therefore least likely to cause parents harm so its hard to argue. If we could extend it from 72 hours that would be great. But taking 'plan B' as the Americans call it should not be the primary contraception method so education / access to prior contraception would be useful.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-pro...20the%20uterus.

Medical abortion (normally chemically induced) is invasive and traumatic the larger the growth gets as I understand it. What to do there is a challenge, but more support is needed.

It is becoming clear that Foetuses can feel some sort of pain at 12 weeks or earlier so is this where we should reconsider our actions, at the very least tranquilise the foetus before injecting them with poison?
https://jme.bmj.com/content/46/1/3

Surgical abortion should really be mainly considered only for the edge cases as I believe the current situation is and both doctors should be present/liable.

Across the world its only a minority of countries where the mother can request abortion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aborti...rment%20(61%25).

According to a United Nations (UN) report with data gathered up to 2019,^[37] abortion is allowed in 98% of countries in order to save a woman's life. Other commonly-accepted reasons are preserving physical (72%) or mental health (69%), in cases of rape or incest (61%), and in cases of fetal impairment (61%). Performing an abortion because of economic or social reasons is accepted in 37% of countries. Performing abortion only on the basis of a woman's request is allowed in 34% of countries, including in Canada, most European countries and China.^[37]

The exact scope of each legal ground also varies. For example, the laws of some countries cite health risks and fetal impairment as general grounds for abortion and allow a broad interpretation of such terms in practice, while other countries restrict them to a specific list of medical conditions or subcategories. Many countries that allow abortion have gestational limits for the procedure depending on the reason; with the majority being up to 12 weeks for abortion on request, up to 24 weeks for social, economic, rape, or incest reasons, and more for fetal impairment or threats to the woman's health or life.^[37]: 26

In some countries, additional procedures must be followed before the abortion can be carried out even if the basic grounds for it are met. For example, in Finland, where abortions are not granted based merely on a woman's request, approval for each abortion must be obtained from two doctors (or one in special circumstances).^[38] The vast majority, 90% of abortions in Finland are performed for socio-economic reasons.^[39] How strictly all of the procedures dictated in the legislation are followed in practice is another matter. For example, in the United Kingdom, a Care Quality Commission's report in 2012 found that several NHS clinics were circumventing the law, using forms pre-signed by one doctor, thus allowing abortions to patients who only met with one doctor.^[40]

https://www.un.org/en/development/de...017_Report.pdf

Now as identified in the discussion 99% are requests and the procedure is not being followed. As I originally stated the abortion will affect both prospective parents. I have not met a women who hasn't in some form regretted and been embarrassed by having an abortion most men are the same.

I think we should hold the clinics to account so they obey the law as a minimum just as we should police end of life pathways.

We should look at countries where unwanted pregnancies happen less and why, then try to emulate them.

[NotAllThere]

I'm all for education but I don't see how restricting access to abortion and adding more regulation helps? What forms of abortion are you against?

The morning after pill (within 72 hours of unprotected sex)
Medical abortion (within the first 10 weeks)
Surgical abortion (after 10 weeks, up to whatever legal limit is in force)

From what I can gather, I think he's against abortion on demand making it too "easy". And probably against abortion for sex selection.

[vetran]

From what I can gather, I think he's against abortion on demand making it too "easy". And probably against abortion for sex selection.

I am absolutely against for sex selection (unless for medical reasons) see what that has done to China and the south asian population.

I think if we understand the reasons for unwanted pregnancy we can prevent it happening in many cases making abortion unnecessary as other countries do.

If we are going to supply it on demand we need to follow the rules and review to see if they can be improved.