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No Smoking Ever

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    #11
    Originally posted by Guy At Charnock Richard View Post
    Hmm... this throws up all, kinds of issues. Is there anything else for which you have to be over any age other than 18 without it being a crime? Personally, I think grown adults should be provided with enough info to make up their own minds and act accordingly. You could argue that the legal age could be raised as we all do silly things when we are young but the NZ model raises the age every year so that people born after a certain date will never be old enough to legally smoke.

    Besides, it's just going to drive tobacco underground into the hands of the criminal gangs. Stupid idea.
    Smoking rates in the UK have fallen quite consistently for over 50 years from nearly half of all adults to about 19-20%. The trend has started to plateau a bit the last few years but generally fewer young people want to take up smoking tobacco, although teenage girls has been on the rise a bit. This trend is consistent in most developed countries in the world.

    Even the big tobacco companies are preparing for a tobacco free future in the next couple of decades. Around 15-20% of revenue will come from non-tobacco products by the end of this decade.

    Most criminal tobacco activity (smuggling and counterfeiting) is driven by the massive differential in tobacco duties between different countries. I remember about 10 years ago that if you brought a car load of duty paid cigarettes from Ukraine and sold them in the UK for half retail price, you'd make something like £3,000 profit, going up to £1m for a large truck. In terms of risk v reward, it seemed better than drug smuggling for sure.

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      #12
      Originally posted by edison View Post


      Purely in monetary terms, the revenue the UK government raises from tobacco taxes is nearly double what the NHS spends on treating smoking related illnesses.
      People trot out these claims (on both sides) without any proof.
      Apart from the obvious difficulty getting accurate figures what the NHS spends on "smoking related illness" (remember how many different ways we had to count Covid deaths), even if tax is more than NHS expenditure, that doesn't mean all that tax take goes to the NHS. Unless it's ring-fenced which seems like it could be a good idea?

      But right now the NHS' big problem is not money, it's capacity. Big infrastructure projects - as many of you will know better than me in real life -can't simply be scaled quickly with even infinite cash. Reducing the volume of people needing treatment for smoking illnesses would effectively increase hospital capacity hugely.
      Originally posted by MaryPoppins
      I'd still not breastfeed a nazi
      Originally posted by vetran
      Urine is quite nourishing

      Comment


        #13
        Is nicotine in vaping form still particularly dangerous? As a non-smoker I had always assumed 90% of the problem was the smoking, not the nicotine? Note I didn't say "does it have ANY ill effects" but comparatively.
        Originally posted by MaryPoppins
        I'd still not breastfeed a nazi
        Originally posted by vetran
        Urine is quite nourishing

        Comment


          #14
          Originally posted by d000hg View Post

          People trot out these claims (on both sides) without any proof.
          Apart from the obvious difficulty getting accurate figures what the NHS spends on "smoking related illness" (remember how many different ways we had to count Covid deaths), even if tax is more than NHS expenditure, that doesn't mean all that tax take goes to the NHS. Unless it's ring-fenced which seems like it could be a good idea?

          But right now the NHS' big problem is not money, it's capacity. Big infrastructure projects - as many of you will know better than me in real life -can't simply be scaled quickly with even infinite cash. Reducing the volume of people needing treatment for smoking illnesses would effectively increase hospital capacity hugely.
          It's an interesting one, this, and people have tried to work out the maths for years - I don't think there is a real answer especially, as you say, smoking can contribute to so many different illnesses. I think the upshot was that state pension saved through early death was probably a bigger saving than the tax take, but it is fair to say that smokers do make a significant contribution to the state finances one way or the other. As an ex-smoker myself tho I do understand why smokers sometimes feel aggrieved when people start talking about witholding care to current smokers etc (never followed through on I don't think) when they are already paying so much. For that to be fair you'd have to start thinking about a "fat tax" or a lack of exercise tax, or a predilection for extreme sports tax etc and there is no real place to draw the line (although the stupid tax (lottery) has been quite successful I must admit).

          Comment


            #15
            I definitely think the idea of withholding care is totally unacceptable. It goes against the entire fabric of our national culture and the principle of the NHS.
            I think anyone who smokes is an idiot but then I drink more than the NHS says I should and eat kebabs and don't exercise enough.
            Originally posted by MaryPoppins
            I'd still not breastfeed a nazi
            Originally posted by vetran
            Urine is quite nourishing

            Comment


              #16
              Originally posted by d000hg View Post
              I definitely think the idea of withholding care is totally unacceptable. It goes against the entire fabric of our national culture and the principle of the NHS.
              I think anyone who smokes is an idiot but then I drink more than the NHS says I should and eat kebabs and don't exercise enough.
              Exactly - very few of us are doing everything within our power to stay as healthy as we can.

              Having said that, I suppose if there are some treatments that simply aren't worth doing if you continue to smoke (or stay fat, or whatever), then it might be ethical. But the fundamental principle of everyone receiving the same level of care regardless must be maintained.

              Comment


                #17
                Originally posted by d000hg View Post
                Is nicotine in vaping form still particularly dangerous? As a non-smoker I had always assumed 90% of the problem was the smoking, not the nicotine? Note I didn't say "does it have ANY ill effects" but comparatively.
                As far as I'm aware, it's not the nicotine itself that is harmful, it is over other chemicals in vapes that questions have been raised. I guess we don't have the data because it hasn't been around long enough .

                Comment


                  #18
                  Originally posted by d000hg View Post
                  Is nicotine in vaping form still particularly dangerous? As a non-smoker I had always assumed 90% of the problem was the smoking, not the nicotine? Note I didn't say "does it have ANY ill effects" but comparatively.
                  Back in the 60s as part of my science studies I watched an autopsy of someone who was a smoker. The lungs were removed and were black and sticky and covered in tar. That is what physically happens to all smokers. There is no need to speculate on the consequential illness caused by this. BTW, one student vomited, another student fainted. The cleaner your lungs, the more likely you will cough and get irritated by smoke.
                  "A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims, but accomplices," George Orwell

                  Comment


                    #19

                    Originally posted by mattster View Post

                    Exactly - very few of us are doing everything within our power to stay as healthy as we can.

                    Having said that, I suppose if there are some treatments that simply aren't worth doing if you continue to smoke (or stay fat, or whatever), then it might be ethical. But the fundamental principle of everyone receiving the same level of care regardless must be maintained.
                    They do apply this to transplants I suppose which is probably reasonable when supply is so limited.

                    Originally posted by Paddy View Post

                    Back in the 60s as part of my science studies I watched an autopsy of someone who was a smoker. The lungs were removed and were black and sticky and covered in tar. That is what physically happens to all smokers. There is no need to speculate on the consequential illness caused by this. BTW, one student vomited, another student fainted. The cleaner your lungs, the more likely you will cough and get irritated by smoke.
                    People routinely faint and vomit seeing healthy innards too, that's not exactly a good metric. But yeah it's quite remarkable how visible the effects are.

                    Originally posted by MaryPoppins
                    I'd still not breastfeed a nazi
                    Originally posted by vetran
                    Urine is quite nourishing

                    Comment


                      #20
                      Originally posted by d000hg View Post
                      Is nicotine in vaping form still particularly dangerous? As a non-smoker I had always assumed 90% of the problem was the smoking, not the nicotine? Note I didn't say "does it have ANY ill effects" but comparatively.
                      It hasn't been proven either way but using common sense how can deliberately inhaling anything but air in to your lungs be good for you? Also outside Europe the vapes themselves can be dangerous - https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/basic_in...g-disease.html
                      "You’re just a bad memory who doesn’t know when to go away" JR

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