Birstall MP attacked and killed

[MrMarkyMark]

The bloke was a right ring, radical, nutter.
Probably would have killed someone at some point, referendum or no referendum.

Those are the facts.

It's sad to think that people stoop as low to try and use this sad event to further their particular political cause.

[NotAllThere]

Do you not find it quite astonishing that, one way or the other, some people are trying to "leverage" the actions of this person for a political purpose?

No, I don't. Because I have a very dim view of humanity. There was, it appears, a political motive behind the killing, but that should not affect the outcome of the vote - though I think it might. Since both side have agreed a moratorium on campaigning, it seems that both sides agree that, in part, that without the referendum next week, she would probably be alive.

[jamesbrown]

No, I don't. Because I have a very dim view of humanity. There was, it appears, a political motive behind the killing, but that should not affect the outcome of the vote - though I think it might.

Barring a dramatic swing in opinion, I guess we'll never know, but I sincerely hope not, because he doesn't deserve it. Perhaps I'm naive, but I'd be surprised if many were swayed by this, either way.

Since both side have agreed a moratorium on campaigning, it seems that both sides agree that, in part, that without the referendum next week, she would probably be alive.

I'm completely neutral on motivation and I'll believe the facts as they are reported (contempt rules now apply, so reporting will be very limited), but these facts wouldn't even begin to influence my opinion about the upcoming referendum.

I take a slightly different view on the suspension of the campaigns, though. She was a loved and well respected politician. This referendum is fundamentally a political campaign, and it has been vitriolic in the extreme. It's entirely reasonable and sensible for politics to be suspended for a brief period of reflection, out of respect, but the campaigning should restart quite soon, and vigorously. I see no connection beyond that.

[covbob]

He's told the court his name is "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain".

Is anybody willing to hazard a guess as to his views on the forthcoming referendum, and how they might relate to his motives in allegedly murdering Jo Cox? Or is it still too early to speculate?

Interesting. Sadly I do have several friends who regularly spout the rhetoric of anyone they see as in any way unpatriotic or anti-British being "traitors" and calling for them to either be deported or hung from a lamppost.

Whether or not they mean it or it's just hyperbole I find it disturbing language which skews the whole way any debate with them is framed - and once that kind of language becomes the norm for them it tends to leak slowly out of the extremes into the centre ground. That's a scary thought because a. some nutter might actually do it and b. if you think calling for your opponents to be strung up is normal then any kind of sensible discussion is impossible and we're down to polarised, entrenched camps.

[NickFitz]

Do you not find it quite astonishing that, one way or the other, some people are trying to "leverage" the actions of this person for a political purpose? How much can you seriously read into it? Think about the alternate scenario for a minute where, god forbid, some EU citizen carried out a heinous act in the UK leading up to the vote. What could we read into that? Would you be arguing about their motives and the relevance for this vote? Personally, I find the spin in the Fail (focus on his mental health only) and the Guardian (trying to link it to the wider Brexit campaign in the "conditional" sense, leaving that dead cat lying on the table) equally disgusting. Don't you agree?

She was a politician who was holding a constituency surgery where her constituents could ask her about political matters, and was attacked there by somebody who is reported to have shouted the name of a political party as he carried out the attack, and who has now told a court that his name is a political slogan.

So I think any attempt to argue that this tragic crime should not be viewed as a political act and discussed in that context is naive at best.

[Flashman]

Birstall MP attacked and killed

Unnecessary

[NickFitz]

Interesting. Sadly I do have several friends who regularly spout the rhetoric of anyone they see as in any way unpatriotic or anti-British being "traitors" and calling for them to either be deported or hung from a lamppost.

Whether or not they mean it or it's just hyperbole I find it disturbing language which skews the whole way any debate with them is framed - and once that kind of language becomes the norm for them it tends to leak slowly out of the extremes into the centre ground. That's a scary thought because a. some nutter might actually do it and b. if you think calling for your opponents to be strung up is normal then any kind of sensible discussion is impossible and we're down to polarised, entrenched camps.

Indeed. Those who indulge in such hyperbole should remember that speech has consequences, and not everybody is as savvy about what should be taken as metaphor and what should be taken literally as they are. If you tell people on national television that "if people feel they've lost control" then "violence is the next step", you have to accept some responsibility if somebody decides that the time for the next step is now.

[jamesbrown]

She was a politician who was holding a constituency surgery where her constituents could ask her about political matters, and was attacked there by somebody who is reported to have shouted the name of a political party as he carried out the attack, and who has now told a court that his name is a political slogan.

So I think any attempt to argue that this tragic crime should not be viewed as a political act and discussed in that context is naive at best.

You're avoiding the questions I posed. Where did I suggest that this wasn't a politically motivated attack? There is strong circumstantial evidence, but I'll wait for the facts, and I will believe those facts. Since you're pushing one side of this, I'd like your thoughts on the following. Within an hour or so of her death being reported, the accusation was made (notably by Alex Massie in the Spectator and Polly Toynbee in the Guardian) that Brexit campaigners were conditionally culpable for her death. I cannot fathom how any reasonable person would subscribe to this view. It is completely deplorable and without merit. I don't recall anyone pushing the idea that EU was somehow responsible for her death because they've encourage right-wing extremism. This is an analogous point of view, and equally without merit. Do you want to justify any of these views?

[jamesbrown]

Indeed. Those who indulge in such hyperbole should remember that speech has consequences, and not everybody is as savvy about what should be taken as metaphor and what should be taken literally as they are. If you tell people on national television that "if people feel they've lost control" then "violence is the next step", you have to accept some responsibility if somebody decides that the time for the next step is now.

Goodness me, you've really jumped the shark. I had previously considered you to be a very reasonable person.

[PurpleGorilla]

Indeed. Those who indulge in such hyperbole should remember that speech has consequences, and not everybody is as savvy about what should be taken as metaphor and what should be taken literally as they are. If you tell people on national television that "if people feel they've lost control" then "violence is the next step", you have to accept some responsibility if somebody decides that the time for the next step is now.

I haven't seen any call to violence on the telly.