EU Referendum: Do we enough information to take the correct decision?

[DimPrawn]

From the same article:




More "information" for the debate

They all said this before, when we didn't join the single currency, saying it would mean they would all shut up shop and go elsewhere. We didn't join the single currency, and the car industry here has been a massive success and they've expanded and grown.

More scare mongering bulltulip. A falling pound would mean massive increase in exports.

[darmstadt]

Could be like Singapore: Billionaire Brexit supporter says UK should emulate Singapore | Politics | The Guardian

Although the rebuttal makes more sense: Brexit will not make Britain the Singapore of Europe, Opinion News & Top Stories - The Straits Times

Indeed, an irony of the Brexit debate is that 40 years on from the UK jettisoning preferential trading relationships with New Zealand in favour of joining the European Community in 1973, New Zealand has commenced FTA negotiations with the EU. Brexit would likely leave New Zealand with superior EU market access than the UK.

[original PM]

Could be like Singapore: Billionaire Brexit supporter says UK should emulate Singapore | Politics | The Guardian

Although the rebuttal makes more sense: Brexit will not make Britain the Singapore of Europe, Opinion News & Top Stories - The Straits Times

Interesting not sure how big a market for the UK new Zealand is mind you.

[AtW]

A falling pound would mean massive increase in exports.

And massive increase in cost of imports

Oil, gas even bananas will go up in price.

The only good news is that without EU regulations in place it will be finally possible to sell 1/4th of a banana - because nobody will be able to afford a whole one.

Underage children will also be able to dig coal from young age - earn their keep so to speak.

Let's make Britain Great again - back to Dickensian times!!!

HTH

[jamesbrown]

I'll prelude this by saying that the campaign was never going to change my mind, as I follow politics closely (I've learned literally bugger all since the referendum was announced). That being said, Vote Leave really haven't played this well. They were always going to be up against the Gov't machine and the thinly veiled warnings from across the establishment, and there was little chance of winning in that context.

However, they've made far too many stupid mistakes that has led to easy criticism from the Bremainers. Johnson's passing reference to Hitler, for example, was entirely calculated and perfectly reasonable as a historical observation, but also completely stupid in a campaigning context. Likewise, if you listened to Mordaunt on Marr this morning, she didn't exactly say that there wasn't a veto on Turkey, but she certainly implied it, rather than saying there is one, but it isn't necessarily worth much (just as Blair could've restricted access to Poland etc. for 7 years). She's fully aware of the situation, and tried to create a smokescreen. Now, she's allowed the Bremainers to characterise her as a liar.

I'm not sure about the rest of the Brexiters around here, but the Vote Leave campaign has been really disappointing in my view, whereas the Remain campaign has been extremely professional in focusing its hysteria (the claims are, indeed, hysterical) and deploying other public bodies for maximum impact. They know the difference between lies and hyperbole and between actually lying and allowing a lie to be inferred by listeners and to sit on the table like a turd. Vote Leave are rank amateurs in comparison.

[AtW]

I'll prelude this by saying that the campaign was never going to change my mind, as I follow politics closely (I've learned literally bugger all since the referendum was announced). That being said, Vote Leave really haven't played this well. They were always going to be up against the Gov't machine and the thinly veiled warnings from across the establishment, and there was little chance of winning in that context.

Carefully appointed people in the Leave campaign got mandate to be really stooopid to lose their voters - they'll be all knighted in New Years honours for their services to the country...

All apart from one.

[jamesbrown]

Carefully appointed people in the Leave campaign got mandate to be really stooopid to lose their voters

Conspiracy theorists are mostly idiots, but it does make you wonder

Hamface and Gidiot are seriously bad for democracy and their arguments are mostly vacuous, but you have to credit them for their professionalism; the Gov't machine is a sight to behold (have we had the Premier League footballers sign a letter yet? If not, that'll be next). They know how to win, no holds barred. I'm not sure whether Hamface will able to thread the needle with the Tory party post-Bremain. I suspect not - so they may win the battle and lose the war - but credit where it's due.

[AtW]

Conspiracy theorists are mostly idiots, but it does make you wonder

Indeed.

They sidelined Farage, which in my view was mistake IF they actually wanted to win.

Boris is an opportunistic Tory Scum liar, he would have backed In campaign if he was offered PM.

[jamesbrown]

They sidelined Farage, which in my view was mistake IF they actually wanted to win.

Maybe. I don't think they were ever going to win, realistically. As I say, once the Gov't machine cranks up, it's difficult to ignore, but I've still been surprised at how well they've done it.

The problem with Farage and his immigration-only strategy is that it's a 40% strategy, and so it completely relies on low turnout. I predict that the turnout will be similar to or better than a GE (contrary to most referendums). I think Vote Leave were probably right to focus on undecided voters, but they've made a hash of it, so now they're pivoting to immigration. I agree that Farage/Leave.EU is the right group for that, but it wouldn't have worked either.

Fundamentally, I think the problem is that Eurosceptic politicians tend to be somewhat more individualist/maverick and, while they've had a very long time to plan for this (except Gove/Johnson who decided later on), they haven't worked out a solid team strategy/message. They haven't used their time wisely. In contrast, Hamface absolutely knew that he would be campaigning for Bremain from the start, and he had a carefully crafted strategy, with all business leaders and heads of public bodies onboard and on message. Take Mark Carney and Simon Stevens, for example, who were bang on message. Vote Leave has the passion, but they don't have a strategy.

[AtW]

I agree that Farage/Leave.EU is the right group for that, but it wouldn't have worked either.

No, it would not have worked either, but at least it would have been genuine campaign run by somebody who believed in leaving.