Brexit won't stop EU migration

[TykeMerc]

That was not my point. The EU as an institution will be forced to reform by a Brexit

If it survives a Brexit, a fair few observers feel that it wouldn't, but I feel the point is moot as there won't be one.
There's no motivation for the EU to reform, the prime driver for change is to placate the UK, should Brexit occur that would be gone.

What would happen is an acceleration towards Federalism and a United States of Europe (or a Greater Germany which is what it amounts to), unified defence, foreign and immigration policies and a complete erosion of the illusory European democracy.

[BlasterBates]

Trying to solve the immigration problem by leaving the EU is like replacing the wheels on your car when the battery is flat.

[jamesbrown]

I accept that you cannot be within the single market and avoid free movement. It didn't need to be conceived this way but, now that it is, the rules need to be applied uniformly to avoid undercutting. I also accept that you cannot seriously reduce immigration without having an economic impact. We have some difficult realities to face here. If we seriously want to reduce unskilled migration from the EU, we cannot be part of the single market, and we'll need a visa system. Remember that much of the migration from outside the EU involves students and skilled workers. This will have an economic cost, but unfettered access also has an economic cost, only not distributed in the same way.

[jamesbrown]

Trying to solve the immigration problem by leaving the EU is like replacing the wheels on your car when the battery is flat.

This is an overstatement. Leaving the single market is a necessary condition, but not a sufficient condition.

[The_Equalizer]

If it survives a Brexit, a fair few observers feel that it wouldn't, but I feel the point is moot as there won't be one.
There's no motivation for the EU to reform, the prime driver for change is to placate the UK, should Brexit occur that would be gone.

What would happen is an acceleration towards Federalism and a United States of Europe (or a Greater Germany which is what it amounts to), unified defence, foreign and immigration policies and a complete erosion of the illusory European democracy.

Charles Moore in the Telegraph writes that the thinking of the 'upper echelons' is that democracy doesn't matter:

In the social stratum which consists mainly of university graduates and high professionals, the majority, I suspect, is born to think that class matters more than country. This inclines them to support the Remain side. Speaking as a member of this class who does not share that view, I am acutely aware of it. It is amusing to see how people express it. Being well brought up, they hardly ever say: “I like the EU because it is anti-democratic and gives power and jobs to people like us who know more than the great unwashed. If we were to leave, the plebs would be in charge.” But that is, in fact, what they fear.

Trade Deals are Red Herring in the EU Debate/

I've suspected this was the case.

[sasguru]

If it survives a Brexit, a fair few observers feel that it wouldn't, but I feel the point is moot as there won't be one.
There's no motivation for the EU to reform, the prime driver for change is to placate the UK, should Brexit occur that would be gone.

What would happen is an acceleration towards Federalism and a United States of Europe (or a Greater Germany which is what it amounts to), unified defence, foreign and immigration policies and a complete erosion of the illusory European democracy.

Probably.
My argument has always been that to leave is tantamount to throwing in the towel and going against 5 centuries of British foreign policy which has been to prevent the domination of the continent by one power.
Problem is the half-hearted way Britain has approached the EU, in the transition from being post-Imperial.
By dint of relative economic size and free-market and democratic instinct, Britain should be one of the top 2 players in Europe. It could if resources were devoted to that object, instead of sending cretins like Farage to take the piss.

[The_Equalizer]

Probably.
My argument has always been that to leave is tantamount to throwing in the towel and going against 5 centuries of British foreign policy which has been to prevent the domination of the continent by one power.
Problem is the half-hearted way Britain has approached the EU, in the transition from being post-Imperial.
By dint of relative economic size and free-market and democratic instinct, Britain should be one of the top 2 players in Europe. It could if resources were devoted to that object, instead of sending cretins like Farage to take the piss.

So how does Britain become one of the top two? Are you our very own Oswald Mosley? Brexit would do a nice job of kicking the whole thing in the nuts.

[sasguru]

Charles Moore in the Telegraph writes that the thinking of the 'upper echelons' is that democracy doesn't matter:

In the social stratum which consists mainly of university graduates and high professionals, the majority, I suspect, is born to think that class matters more than country. This inclines them to support the Remain side. Speaking as a member of this class who does not share that view, I am acutely aware of it. It is amusing to see how people express it. Being well brought up, they hardly ever say: “I like the EU because it is anti-democratic and gives power and jobs to people like us who know more than the great unwashed. If we were to leave, the plebs would be in charge.” But that is, in fact, what they fear.

Trade Deals are Red Herring in the EU Debate/

I've suspected this was the case.

I doubt that anyone wants to be part of a non-democratic tyranny.
But we haven't done very much to support democracy in Europe, have we?
We send cretins like Farage who doesn't even bother turning up but still takes the gravy train money, and some people think that is clever.

[sasguru]

So how does Britain become one of the top two? Are you our very own Oswald Mosley? Brexit would do a nice job of kicking the whole thing in the nuts.

It is already by economic size.
Some old fashioned 19th century style diplomacy would be a start.
Devote some resources to getting what we want.

[DodgyAgent]

Probably.
My argument has always been that to leave is tantamount to throwing in the towel and going against 5 centuries of British foreign policy which has been to prevent the domination of the continent by one power.
Problem is the half-hearted way Britain has approached the EU, in the transition from being post-Imperial.
By dint of relative economic size and free-market and democratic instinct, Britain should be one of the top 2 players in Europe. It could if resources were devoted to that object, instead of sending cretins like Farage to take the piss.

The EU is already dominated by Germany with the med EU countries held in poverty and subservience.