UK referendum - EU membership

[Zero Liability]

LoL

I would hope that we have a slightly stronger hand to play

Well if Britain leaves, Germany's bill for supporting the EU will go up. We'll see if even Germany or France want to be in it by that point.

[xoggoth]

The Eurozone is not the EU. If you were talking about Britain being in the Eurozone you'd probably have a point. Grexit and Brexit are totally different; nobody ever thought Greece would leave the EU.

Only different in a technical sense, they are both about the same thing. A deluded idealism, self serving autocrats and the determination to push through this "union" with no concern for democracy.

The major problems are the lack of democracy and the micro management with different layers of EU government producing thousands of detailed rulings that are imposed on member states. Laws are primarily proposed by the unelected European commission; the elected European parliament is the least powerful of the 3 EU institutions. Compare this with the more sensible model in the US. Undoubtedly one nation but states have much greater control over their own laws.

Have a look at this bollox. one of many examples of the thousands of detailed rulings:

River basins and districts

Member States have to identify all the river basins lying within their national territory and to assign them to individual river basin districts . River basins covering the territory of more than one Member State are assigned to an international river basin district.

Member States are to designate a competent authority for the application of the rules provided for in this Framework-Directive within each river basin district.

Identification and analysis of waters

Each Member State shall produce:
•an analysis of the characteristics of each river basin district;
•a review of the impact of human activity on water;
•an economic analysis of water use;
•a register of protected areas, that is, areas identified as requiring special protection (areas identified for drinking water abstraction and other areas listed in Annex IV of the Directive);
•a survey of all bodies of water used for abstracting water for human consumption and producing more than 10 m3 per day or serving more than 50 persons.

This analysis should be revised every six years thereafter.

All laws here:
Summaries of EU Legislation - EUR-Lex

[darmstadt]

Have a look at this bollox. one of many examples of the thousands of detailed rulings:

And why is this bollocks? I'm pretty sure that you'll find just as many rules, regulations and laws in each countries own make-up. Maybe you could try reading the 12 notes that make up the Water Framework Directive

[BrilloPad]

Until today, it was an easy YES to stay in the EU

Was it?

I want UK to be part of a common market.

[jamesbrown]

Have a look at this bollox. one of many examples of the thousands of detailed rulings

Actually, that one isn't bollocks at all. You can't manage river systems by state boundaries, as they patently don't respect those boundaries. Also, the system is certainly no less complicated in the US, especially w/r to water consumption/diversions/regulation. There may be good examples of excessive regulation, but this isn't a good one and the Water Framework Directive was, in many ways, a very good thing.

[VectraMan]

Actually, that one isn't bollocks at all. You can't manage river systems by state boundaries, as they patently don't respect those boundaries. Also, the system is certainly no less complicated in the US, especially w/r to water consumption/diversions/regulation. There may be good examples of excessive regulation, but this isn't a good one and the Water Framework Directive was, in many ways, a very good thing.

Indeed. Heaven forbid we should have clean water. Bloody EU.

More importantly this sort of thing supports free trade as it prevents unscrupulous nations being able to undercut everybody else by not caring about polluting their environment, or abusing their workers in a way that we wouldn't accept.

[unixman]

In a referendum, I would think carefully, then vote to leave the EU. The ultimate reason being the democratic deficit, ie. the lack of democracy in the EU when compared to a nation state. There are many intellectual problems with this, just as there are many problems with the way the EU has behaved over the decades. In my view the bad behaviour is ultimately linked to the insufficient levels of democracy.

The bad behaviors this decade are: a craving for more power among the leaders of the EU, which has led to expansionist ambitions regardless of the consequences. eg. letting small countries join the EU where it is not appropriate, meddling on the eastern borders and provoking Russia, creating mass movements of people within the EU and into the EU, an insistence of running the small affairs of member countries, eg. UK employment law, weights and measures, and even the constant lobbying to have an EU army, which Claude Junker again called for last week (and he must NEVER be allowed to have).

If the EU adopted fuller democracy (and it may do, eventually), the more outrageous behaviours would be checked, just as they are with national governments, because the EU leadership would then be more in hoc to the people of Europe, ie the voters.

The EU has achieved some good things, but too few.

[VectraMan]

The major problems are the lack of democracy and the micro management with different layers of EU government producing thousands of detailed rulings that are imposed on member states. Laws are primarily proposed by the unelected European commission; the elected European parliament is the least powerful of the 3 EU institutions.

The European Commission is appointed by the European Council which is made up of the democratically elected leaders of the member states, and then approved by the democratically elected European Parliament. Democracy doesn't mean anybody with any power must be directly elected; democracy means anybody with any power is appointed by or answerable to somebody democratically elected.

No lack of democracy in the EU.

[d000hg]

In a referendum, I would think carefully

So you already know how you're going to vote before you do the thinking part? Why not save yourself the effort

[xoggoth]

Democracy doesn't mean anybody with any power must be directly elected; democracy means anybody with any power is appointed by or answerable to somebody democratically elected.

So how far up does it go? When power becomes more and more detached, where the top levels do not have to appeal to voters, only buy influence or appease their cronies in the next lower levels. Where those who actually have the power are people who most citizens have never even heard of let, alone approved. If the PM was only appointed by MPs after an election would you agree with that?

That is not democracy at all. Think FIFA was probably a better example of it.