Nobody on here bothered by ISIS?

[Mich the Tester]

A few things to be aware of:

• The overwhelming majority of those killed to date by IS are Muslims;
• The overwhelming majority of those currently engaged in active combat against IS are Muslims;
• The people who have been warning the world of the menace of IS for longest are Muslims.

If you think the problem of IS implies that Islam, in all its forms, is itself a problem, then you are either a fool or a bigot.

Plenty to choose from here.

[xoggoth]

If you think the problem of IS implies that Islam, in all its forms, is itself a problem, then you are either a fool or a bigot.

I won't call you a fool but are ignorant. Maybe you need to inform yourself a bit better.

Where is the democracy in any Islamic state? In Pakistan, all senior politicians must swear to uphold the principles of Islam, minorities and women are represented by appointees and 2 million Ahmadis are effectively excluded from voting. In the Maldives, only Sunni Muslims are allowed citizenship. In Bangladesh there are no formal exclusions but the chance of any non Muslim going beyond the lowest level in government or the armed forces is absolute zero.

Where is the equality? In the so-called most moderate Islamic state of Malaysia, court cases pitting Muslims against non Muslims are held in Islamic courts according to Islamic principles and only Muslim lawyers are allowed. In numerous states, any public religious display by others is deemed to be proselytising and an offence. Try applying to build a church in Egypt. In various states women have fewer rights, for example, they can inherit less and their word in a court of law counts for less. In Turkey, freedom has been going South since Erdogan got in.

As for violence, Iraq is just a more extreme case of what is happening in many countries. Christians are being driven out of the Middle East (is the Archbishop of Canterbury a bigot?) and Northern Nigeria, Hindus and Sikhs from Pakistan and Bangladesh. Minorities are attacked in "moderate" Indonesia.

The list of exclusions, persecutions, atrocities and backward practices is long even before we mention the extreme states like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan or Yemen. Do you know Iran still cuts off hands?

Many of the attacks are so routine, they never hit the news here. Here is "moderate" Bangladesh for you:

There were reports of societal abuses and discrimination based on religious affiliation, belief, or practice. There were a large number of arson attacks and looting of minority religious sites and private homes across the country, especially against the Hindu community.

International Religious Freedom Report for 2013

[Mich the Tester]

Where is the democracy in any Islamic state?

Well this is a worthwhile question. I don't think you'll find democracy, as we know it, in any 'Islamic state'. But then I don't think democracy is really compatible with the concept of a religious state. Now OK, some would argue that Britain and other European democracies are 'Christian states', but in reality, they're secular states which afford some or no role in state affairs to representatives of the Catholic or Protestant church. I don´t personally believe that a religious state can be truly democratic. BUT, there are a number of states where Islam exists largely peacefully alongside other religions and which are to a reasonable extent, democratic. India, which has a large muslim population, comes to mind. Tanzania has an almost equal share of Christians, Muslims and others, and is nowadays a pretty stable democracy and one of Africa's most enduringly peaceful societies and is moving forwards in many aspects. Malaysia and Indonesia have had periods of dictatorship and periods of democracy and both have a large muslim population alongside other groups; maybe the key is that no religion should have precedence in a democracy; Islam can be compatible with democracy IF it's tempered by the presence of other faiths. Once it takes a dominant position, it becomes a problem; perhaps Ataturk's great success was in realising that and making the Republic of Turkey strictly a secular state, even though it had about 95% Muslim population; I hope, and I actually I believe, that it will remain that way despite Erdogan's worst efforts; in the end, the urban populations of Turkey are quite attached to the secular state. I think Erdogan's staying in power because his government sorted out the economic mess, and not because they pursue a more Islamic government; one recession and he's finished.

[xoggoth]

There are some Islamic states, eg. Oman, Chad, Bahrain (or is it UAR I mean? can't be arsed to look it up but it's all in that US State dept. religious freedoms site) who do treat others decently.

However, as you say, no state that bases its laws on tenets of a single religion can ever have equality, democracy or freedom of choice as we in the West understand those things.

While there are many undemocratic nations, such as China, who persecute religious minorities they see as a threat, there are no significant nations, apart from Islamic ones, who officially base their laws on a religious faith. That is why Islam is a threat like no other to those of who hope for a rational society. What does the growth of Islam in the UK imply for the future our own society? Hopefully it will moderate as Christianity and Judaism already have but we cannot depend on it.

PS As for Turkey, their economic implosion is well under way. Hope for the Turks' sake they get shot of him ASAP.

[EternalOptimist]

I am nor disagreeing with you xxog, or NF or Mtt
but this idea of Hope is doing my swede in

you might hope that the dog wont bite, but the risk is enormous.
Take the appropriate precautions before its too late.

better to have a big stick and have to lean on it, than to get bitten for lack of a big stick

[Mich the Tester]

There are some Islamic states, eg. Oman, Chad, Bahrain (or is it UAR I mean? can't be arsed to look it up but it's all in that US State dept. religious freedoms site) who do treat others decently.

However, as you say, no state that bases its laws on tenets of a single religion can ever have equality, democracy or freedom of choice as we in the West understand those things.

While there are many undemocratic nations, such as China, who persecute religious minorities they see as a threat, there are no significant nations, apart from Islamic ones, who officially base their laws on a religious faith.

Well, arguably Ireland did that for a while, but they won´t be doing it again in a hurry.

[xoggoth]

There's a difference between a nation being strongly influenced by its religious culture and officially installing that religion as the only source of its laws. Religion does play a strong part in government in various nations, like Ireland or Israel. If they are largely religious nations, that's democracy in action. However, there is no official exclusion of other opinions. If most Irish wanted abortion on demand then sooner or later they would get it.

[xoggoth]

PS Hang on, I'm going on holiday to Turkey in a couple of weeks. I take it all back Erdogan, you're a brilliant democratic leader.

[NickFitz]

If you think the problem of IS implies that Islam, in all its forms, is itself a problem, then you are either a fool or a bigot.

I won't call you a fool but are ignorant. Maybe you need to inform yourself a bit better.

Caliphaters gonna caliphate

[Mich the Tester]

PS Hang on, I'm going on holiday to Turkey in a couple of weeks. I take it all back Erdogan, you're a brilliant democratic leader.

You'll probably have a great time.