Merged threads discussing Israel

[DodgyAgent]

The situation is complex as there should certainly be limits to the violent response, but it is a simple principled question. Care to answer?

It is simple only because it suits your argument to take it out of context and apply it as a general principle. it is like saying all rates for a particular category of job should be the same without taking into consideration the context of the distance travelled to work the demands of the particular project and the working conditions.

The Israelis are killing children, so are Hamas so both are equally wrong. In WW2 the allies also killed children as did the Germans so therefore the two sides are equally as wrong as each other. This is how "principle outside of context" works. So your question is completely irrelevant in the first place.

[SpontaneousOrder]

what land was illegally taken?

The land that NotAllThere said was illegally taken.

[DodgyAgent]

The land that NotAllThere said was illegally taken.

if the land wqas "notallthere" how could it be taken?

[DodgyAgent]

The land that NotAllThere said was illegally taken.

Under these "rules" then most of the worlds land has been taken illegally.

[Old Greg]

It is simple only because it suits your argument to take it out of context and apply it as a general principle. it is like saying all rates for a particular category of job should be the same without taking into consideration the context of the distance travelled to work the demands of the particular project and the working conditions.

The Israelis are killing children, so are Hamas so both are equally wrong. In WW2 the allies also killed children as did the Germans so therefore the two sides are equally as wrong as each other. This is how "principle outside of context" works. So your question is completely irrelevant in the first place.

It's a pity you obfuscate. How about:

Is an illegally occupied people entitled to resist violently against an occupier?

[DodgyAgent]

It's a pity you obfuscate. How about:

Is an illegally occupied people entitled to resist violently against an occupier?

I had forgotten that you people think in binary and have little concept of context or emotional intelligence. If Israel is intending to invade Gaza then it may be wrong and it may be disproportionate but it is their way of dealing with the problem. If I were to agree the principle then the principle would also apply to the invasion of Berlin by allied forces at the end of WW2. In fact the principle would apply to any occupation of any foreign land whatever the reasons behind them.

[SpontaneousOrder]

Under these "rules" then most of the worlds land has been taken illegally.

I'm just pointing out that NaT seems to have a very selective historical perspective, depending on the argument he's trying to make - which only seems fair given that he's so keen to accuse others of the same shortcoming.

I personally don't feel overly inclined to side with anyone in particular - i think (as a sweeping generalisation) that the peoples of the various Arab nations are a savage and barbaric people, and that the Zionist Jewry aren't much better.

What does bother me somewhat is that of all the places the Jews could choose to settle they choose to entrench themselves slap bang in the middle of Muslim territory. Now children are born on both sides with an immediate enemy and peace is almost certainly unachievable. The Israelis will always grow up hating the Arabs for their transgressions, that being strengthened by their apparent savagery, and the Arabs will never escape the self-loathing to achieve an enlightened state of being as the Israelis have taken it upon themselves to take away the room they need (geographically & metaphorically) in order to follow the same path of civilisation that the rest of the world had to take.

I have no time for people who keep a dog locked up in a cage, poking it all the while with a stick, and then complain that it's a savage and untameable beast.

Kids are often bullies at school, and then when they escape into the real world most of them grow up and stop the aggressive behaviour. If you take it upon yourself to keep them trapped in school with all of the pressures & irrationalities that come as part of that, then you shouldn't be surprised that after another 20 years that person still behaves like a child.

What's done is done, but i can't lay zero blame on the Zionists - despite the the savagery of the Arabs.

[DodgyAgent]

I'm just pointing out that NaT seems to have a very selective historical perspective, depending on the argument he's trying to make - which only seems fair given that he's so keen to accuse others of the same shortcoming.

I personally don't feel overly inclined to side with anyone in particular - i think (as a sweeping generalisation) that the peoples of the various Arab nations are a savage and barbaric people, and that the Zionist Jewry aren't much better.

What does bother me somewhat is that of all the places the Jews could choose to settle they choose to entrench themselves slap bang in the middle of Muslim territory. Now children are born on both sides with an immediate enemy and peace is almost certainly unachievable. The Israelis will always grow up hating the Arabs for their transgressions, that being strengthened by their apparent savagery, and the Arabs will never escape the self-loathing to achieve an enlightened state of being as the Israelis have taken it upon themselves to take away the room they need (geographically & metaphorically) in order to follow the same path of civilisation that the rest of the world had to take.

I have no time for people who keep a dog locked up in a cage, poking it all the while with a stick, and then complain that it's a savage and untameable beast.

Kids are often bullies at school, and then when they escape into the real world most of them grow up and stop the aggressive behaviour. If you take it upon yourself to keep them trapped in school with all of the pressures & irrationalities that come as part of that, then you shouldn't be surprised that after another 20 years that person still behaves like a child.

What's done is done, but i can't lay zero blame on the Zionists - despite the the savagery of the Arabs.

There is a difference between the Israelis and the Arabs. one has a well ordered democratic society that we should uphold and support as a model for Arab states to follow. The truth is that if the Arabs stopped attacking Israel and tried to emulate their democratic system of government and their market led economy then peace would be achieved. The Israelis want this but the Arabs do not.

As for the Israelis the fact that they have popped up in the middle of the muslim world and shown the arabs how civilised society can be achieved is a virtue for which we should all be thankful. The reason the Arabs hate the Israelis is because they embody the democratic freedoms that undermine the autocratic ruling classes of the Arab world.

as Brendan O Neil argues it is people like you with your patronising moral equivalence that ensure the totalitarian regimes of the Arab world continue to exist in suppressing their people and exporting terrorism.

[RedSauce]

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/06/shocki...ty-ground.html

[SpontaneousOrder]

the fact that they have popped up in the middle of the muslim world and shown the arabs how civilised society can be achieved is a virtue for which we should all be thankful.

To be fair (although my understanding is probably few years out of date now) the largely socialist Israeli economy is pretty shambolic, and the only way they've managed to get where they are is thanks to the massive foreign aid they have received.

as Brendan O Neil argues it is people like you with your patronising moral equivalence that ensure the totalitarian regimes of the Arab world continue to exist in suppressing their people and exporting terrorism.

Whether you choose to feel patronised by people's distaste for moral relativism or not is entirely up to you. Some people just consider the justification of acts of barbarity, due to the perpetrator being less barbarous in general than their victims, to be nothing more than an excuse for doing evil just so long as someone else is always doing slightly more evil.

I don't buy for a second the idea that my condemnation of Israel's behaviour contributes to the perpetuation of the totalitarian regimes in the Arab states. Your civilised and democratic western governments systematically undermine foreign nations in the region precisely to keep them unstable. Israel is a well know exporter of terrorism anyhow.

Peoples become civilised, given the room and encouragement to do so. You can't bomb reason into people.