Why don't I see the normal working hours on my contract?

[Zero Liability]

TBH, I don't think the hours are *that* big a part of any IR35 consideration - actual working practices are far more important. For example, I grabbed a couple of decent bonus points in my mind in current gig, as have to supply my own suitably specced laptop, don't get the £5/day card load the permies get, have to park at a different location (albeit with a free shuttle bus) and so on.....add in a non-equal termination clause (I have to give more notice than client) and the hours thing pales into insignificance

Yes, this would not point to mutuality of obligation, since it's more one-way. I imagine it's something to the effect that they can just terminate the relationship forthwith if they're dissatisfied.

[kingcook]

I was just issued a contract which states:

“Normal Working Hours”: means the number of hours required for the Contractor to perform the Services as agreed between the Client and Contractor.

Shouldn't the contract state
that the normal working hours are 9-5:30pm or 8:30 - 5pm?
Otherwise I can see the client asking me to work overtime every time.

Many thanks

The agent has left it up to you to negotiate with the client.

For bum-on-seat gigs, I inform (not ask) the client that I arrive/leave early/late on different days depending on various factors, but i'll always be there if there's some meeting to attend, or some other time-critical work to be done -- and I always put in a full day's work averaged out over the week.

I've never had a problem with that. If/when a client ever tries to force me to work set hours for no particular reason, then it's bye-bye time.

Do whatever you feel is best though.

[northernladuk]

The agent has left it up to you to negotiate with the client.

For bum-on-seat gigs, I inform (not ask) the client that I arrive/leave early/late on different days depending on various factors, but i'll always be there if there's some meeting to attend, or some other time-critical work to be done -- and I always put in a full day's work averaged out over the week.

I've never had a problem with that. If/when a client ever tries to force me to work set hours for no particular reason, then it's bye-bye time.

Do whatever you feel is best though.

More or less the same. For the first month I turn up a little early and go later until I proven myself and after that I have been left to do what I want. I tend to turn up any time up to 10 and leave at 6 onwards due to traffic and in the last 4 gigs no one has batted an eyelid. I don't clock watch though so it just becomes a professional arrangement rather than dictated by contractors or anything.

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

Negotiate then. Put what suits you in there but prepared for them to say no. You could of course ask what normal working hours are before getting upset about it.

Having open hours can work in your favour allowing flexibility to come in at times to suit you as well.

I don't have any set hours set. It merely states Professional day. The permies there work 7 hour days, so at a minimum I will do that. Works great for me.

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

More or less the same. For the first month I turn up a little early and go later until I proven myself and after that I have been left to do what I want. I tend to turn up any time up to 10 and leave at 6 onwards due to traffic and in the last 4 gigs no one has batted an eyelid. I don't clock watch though so it just becomes a professional arrangement rather than dictated by contractors or anything.

That's the best way to get it to work. Unfortunately some "managers" don't realise the difference between contractors and perm and just treat them the same. Current gig has been the most ir35 working arrangement to date - it's about delivering a specific project and not hours, time in, time out etc. Nobody is managing me on an individual level and we are not included in staff meetings. What would be better would be if the client was just interested in delivery of the thing and you can come and leave completely at will.

[psychocandy]

What the actual clause says is: means the number of hours required for the Contractor to perform the Services as agreed between the Client and Contractor.

So if I show up and they ask me for a task at 5pm to be completed at that day I cannot really say that I have 30 mins to finish it so it will have to be done tomorrow. Do you know what I mean?

The scourge of the Professional Working Day I'm afraid....

Different opinions on how to handle this but, remember, ultimately client can't tell you when and how to do the work (or at least shouldnt).

[psychocandy]

SHall i state that I want my contract to state 7.5 hours per working day?

Hmmm. Potentially client is gonna think you're a lazy arse if you push this. Know what you mean though its sometimes best to know what the deal is. For instance, if its long commute and/or train it might be make or break on the hours as to whether its doable.

With me, I tend to get in early and leave early. Current contract is great for that, I do 37.5 come and go when I want, leave early on friday, and they said this up front which was good. Because its a low rate and fair trek I'd probably have not bothered if they'd insisted on 9-5.30 or whatever.

PWD means different things to different people - its all a bit flexible and a grey area.
To me, it means around an average of 7.5/8 hours a day. If something goes wrong then I'll work extra within reason but then don't expect grief if I come in late on day due to doctors/dentist etc. In terms of hours, start times etc it means whats best for me as long as client doesnt have a huge problem.

Unfortunately, the odd client try to get PWD to mean "Im paying a shedload here I want my moneys worth so its 10 hours matey". If you get stuck in this, I tend to do the same 8 hours and then its up to them if they choose not to renew and get another mug in instead.

[psychocandy]

The agent has left it up to you to negotiate with the client.

For bum-on-seat gigs, I inform (not ask) the client that I arrive/leave early/late on different days depending on various factors, but i'll always be there if there's some meeting to attend, or some other time-critical work to be done -- and I always put in a full day's work averaged out over the week.

I've never had a problem with that. If/when a client ever tries to force me to work set hours for no particular reason, then it's bye-bye time.

Do whatever you feel is best though.

Spot on KC. If clients spots weakness they'll have you. lol.

And of course, if you start out doing long hours they'll expect it forever and a day.

[psychocandy]

More or less the same. For the first month I turn up a little early and go later until I proven myself and after that I have been left to do what I want. I tend to turn up any time up to 10 and leave at 6 onwards due to traffic and in the last 4 gigs no one has batted an eyelid. I don't clock watch though so it just becomes a professional arrangement rather than dictated by contractors or anything.

Nah mate. Not for me. Arselicking and staying late is for permies....

[psychocandy]

Out of interest, just how much per day is flexibility worth to you?

Example,

client A. Totally flexible, come and go as you please. No extra hours. £x/day.

client B. Not so flexible. Mainly need to be there 9-5. Occasional extra for free. £x+50/day.