Contract With No Mention of Daily Weekly Hours

[988414]

Hello All,

Just had this come to light - and I know, I should have seen it before.

Yesterday had a 'discussion' with the client I'm working with about mundane stuff like hours of work, lunch breaks etc. Now, this place is a bit Dickensian in that permies work an 8 hour day, 40 hour week with an enforced 1hr, unpaid lunch. So I mentioned the usual about an hour for lunch just extends the working day and that I'd rather just take 30 mins and leave 30 mins early. The role I have is not one of service cover so no one anywhere depends on me being here to cover any certain times and it could quite easily be done from home (not that I dare even mention that!).
He was stunned that I may wish to buck the trend of their work regime and threatened that if I didn't comply I would be persona non gratis.
This got me to actually look at my contract, and lo and behold there is nothing in there relating to any hours at all. Just a daily rate. I spoke to the agency regarding this and their reply was, 'you're right, there is nothing there. Tell you what, if they offer an extension I will make sure they are in the next one'. So I asked them to check what it said in their contract with the client. I am waiting to hear what the content of this is.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[malvolio]

Hello All,

Just had this come to light - and I know, I should have seen it before.

Yesterday had a 'discussion' with the client I'm working with about mundane stuff like hours of work, lunch breaks etc. Now, this place is a bit Dickensian in that permies work an 8 hour day, 40 hour week with an enforced 1hr, unpaid lunch. So I mentioned the usual about an hour for lunch just extends the working day and that I'd rather just take 30 mins and leave 30 mins early. The role I have is not one of service cover so no one anywhere depends on me being here to cover any certain times and it could quite easily be done from home (not that I dare even mention that!).
He was stunned that I may wish to buck the trend of their work regime and threatened that if I didn't comply I would be persona non gratis.
This got me to actually look at my contract, and lo and behold there is nothing in there relating to any hours at all. Just a daily rate. I spoke to the agency regarding this and their reply was, 'you're right, there is nothing there. Tell you what, if they offer an extension I will make sure they are in the next one'. So I asked them to check what it said in their contract with the client. I am waiting to hear what the content of this is.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

You need to resist having to do things their way if it is not relevant to the job you're doing for them. Otherwise, you lose an IR35 challenge under Direction and Control.

However, the other side of that coin is that a day rate means exactly that: you do work for them in any 24 hour period, you charge them a set amount. Talking about hours of work is irrelevant, you're not being paid by the hour nor should you be saying your working hours will be x to y.

However, the can of worms has been opened now. Time to start negotiating an amicable solution...

[northernladuk]

Where working hours are dictated you 'could' argue you were fitting in to the client culture, showing professional courtesy and it isn't true D&C on this point alone. This does however look bad and could warrant further investigation in to your working practices and if they are so hard line about lunch then I would guess it is highly likely they will also be directing you about other aspects which will be a huge problem. You can only argue professional courtesy so far.

I think you need to have a very pragmatic think about your situation and how you work. Will such a client really accept a sub? Do they really understand MoO? It sounds like they might not from your original post so find out. If you find out they don't you have a fairly important decision to make as to your IR35 status.

[BolshieBastard]

Hello All,

Just had this come to light - and I know, I should have seen it before.

Yesterday had a 'discussion' with the client I'm working with about mundane stuff like hours of work, lunch breaks etc. Now, this place is a bit Dickensian in that permies work an 8 hour day, 40 hour week with an enforced 1hr, unpaid lunch. So I mentioned the usual about an hour for lunch just extends the working day and that I'd rather just take 30 mins and leave 30 mins early. The role I have is not one of service cover so no one anywhere depends on me being here to cover any certain times and it could quite easily be done from home (not that I dare even mention that!).
He was stunned that I may wish to buck the trend of their work regime and threatened that if I didn't comply I would be persona non gratis.
This got me to actually look at my contract, and lo and behold there is nothing in there relating to any hours at all. Just a daily rate. I spoke to the agency regarding this and their reply was, 'you're right, there is nothing there. Tell you what, if they offer an extension I will make sure they are in the next one'. So I asked them to check what it said in their contract with the client. I am waiting to hear what the content of this is.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

You've got the ideal contract there. Only now you've set the agent off who'll make darned sure you have hours of 'work \ attendance' in any extension contract!

Under the terms of your current contract, you can point your friendly manager or whatever he is to it and say, 'the T&C's dont dictate any working pattern. I'll fit in as best I can with you so as not to cause disruption but, if I need to take 30 mins for lunch and leave a little earlier and there's no pressing reason to stay longer, this is what I'll do.'

However, be prepared for a kick back from the client and possibly no extension or, having notice served and told not to come in the next day.

[psychocandy]

True what everyone says but if you flag yourself as an awkward git with client you're time will be limited. Depends on how important it is to you.

At the end of the day, clients don't care about IR35, they just want someone to do work for them and not upset the permies. Who may well be upset if they see you going 30 mins before them and they get told they cant do this.

[kingcook]

Hello All,

Just had this come to light - and I know, I should have seen it before.

Yesterday had a 'discussion' with the client I'm working with about mundane stuff like hours of work, lunch breaks etc. Now, this place is a bit Dickensian in that permies work an 8 hour day, 40 hour week with an enforced 1hr, unpaid lunch. So I mentioned the usual about an hour for lunch just extends the working day and that I'd rather just take 30 mins and leave 30 mins early. The role I have is not one of service cover so no one anywhere depends on me being here to cover any certain times and it could quite easily be done from home (not that I dare even mention that!).
He was stunned that I may wish to buck the trend of their work regime and threatened that if I didn't comply I would be persona non gratis.
This got me to actually look at my contract, and lo and behold there is nothing in there relating to any hours at all. Just a daily rate. I spoke to the agency regarding this and their reply was, 'you're right, there is nothing there. Tell you what, if they offer an extension I will make sure they are in the next one'. So I asked them to check what it said in their contract with the client. I am waiting to hear what the content of this is.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

"Persona non gratis"?! Tell him bullsh1t (in a polite way of course). You're there to do some work that needs doing, not to "fit in". Remind him that this is a business to business relationship, you are not a permie.

It's best to stand up to this thing straight away. If you bend over now, what next?

Depending on his response, i'd probably start looking for another contract immediately.

At future interviews, always come across as someone in business. Find out what the client wants, discuss their requirements etc, instead of sitting there answering permie interview type questions.

In my current contract I said to the client during interview that sometimes I work long days on some days, and shorter days on others, sometimes arriving early/late and/or leaving early/late. I stressed that I put the required number of hours in during the week though. They were OK with that. Of course though you have to be there for meetings.

[psychocandy]

Must admit the threatening behaviour by the client is a bit off. But I still think for the sake of 30 mins its best to try and fit in a bit unless it really is inconvenient for you.

Which is why I'm coming around to the idea sometimes of discussing things like this at interview. After all, who wants to take a gig then find out the client wants 8 hours a day every day, no flexibility etc. It just prevents the arguments later on.

[curtis]

This is why I always ask about hours at the end of an interview as I don't want to start and find out the hours are not what suit or I want to do.


Some see it as not something that you should ask but I would rather ask and possibly save any awkwardness later.

[Ticktock]

On the interview for my current gig I told them that sometimes I'm willing to work late into the evening, e.g. if I need to have a call with Australia, or something urgently needs to be done for a deadline, but that in return I expect some give and take - either starting late the next day, working from home, taking some extra time at a later point, or whatever.

[BolshieBastard]

Must admit the threatening behaviour by the client is a bit off. But I still think for the sake of 30 mins its best to try and fit in a bit unless it really is inconvenient for you.

Which is why I'm coming around to the idea sometimes of discussing things like this at interview. After all, who wants to take a gig then find out the client wants 8 hours a day every day, no flexibility etc. It just prevents the arguments later on.

An interview is a two way thing. Too many contractors view it a just a 'job' interview. I always work questions into my answers where I feel the need, such as 'Do you use such and such test tool?' or 'Is your organisation one that encourages suggestions on how to improve processes?' etc.

At the end of the interview, I than make a point of asking about attitude to hours, flexibility on start \ finish or extended hours. Obviously, you dont want to hit them with all these questions otherwise they may think you're more concerned with coming and going a little too much.