Trying to arrange a substitute

**northernladuk** · 11 October 2012, 11:21

Originally posted by Butcheroo View Post

So if we assume having a substitute is the silver bullet how do we try to arrange this

All my contacts have permitted it but with security screening etc I bet if I ever tried it they would make it hard to do.

I saw on the recent Hmrc examples they classed one guy outside of ir35 because he had two named and agreed subs in his contract but never used them. Maybe that is the answer.

The whole sub contracting idea intrigues me as well. If I get a peer to charge me for some say security work for the contract I'm on and I pay him from my business account will that go for me.

Could you get a peer who also works Within the same company to do a sub day as the client would already know them

Anyone got some sub success stories

Firstly good look with substituting....

Secondly I don't think having named subs works in anyway. They only have to ask what those subs were doing during the duration of the contract. If they said in a contract then it's a sham. There is a lot more to winning an IR35 case and one point won't cut it. Picking one element out of a win situation doesn't mean you have the perfect answer.

When you use the term peer are you meaning an empoyee of the client or a fellow contractor at the client or peer as in fellow contractor unrelated to your client. If it is the first of those things how the hell can you bill for taking someone off client work and doing yours?

If it is not then more good luck to you getting someone unrelated to your client working on their security. That sounds more like gross miscounduct than sub contracting.

You have to think like a business here, not a permie palming off a bit of work to someone else.

Oh and if this is any relation to you trying to engineer your score on the business test... If there is a need to do all the things you mention then follow it up. If you are trying to get a better a score drop it IMO.

**Butcheroo** · 11 October 2012, 11:25

Trying to arrange a substitute

Of course you have to think like a business but if you are a one man band that is hard to prove

**The Spartan** · 11 October 2012, 11:25

This came up a few weeks back and personally I don't think it's a silver bullet so to speak, sure it's a good thing to have agreed and in the contract but I think very few people have used it.

**northernladuk** · 11 October 2012, 11:34

Originally posted by Butcheroo View Post

Of course you have to think like a business but if you are a one man band that is hard to prove

And by acting like a one man band trying to be a business you fail......

**Scoobos** · 11 October 2012, 11:39

I've done it and still do from time to time, but mainly to bring in extra resource for those time critical things like datacentre moves or infrastructure renewals.

However, I've used permies and contractors that I've met in past gigs who are good enough and who want some extra pocket money; rather than looking for one to replace me directly during a gig.

There is extra work to do though, if you are not subcontracting , but taking on an employee (they HAVE to go through the books).

In my opinion though, once you take on staff, even if just for one day it pretty much throws IR35 worries away for that particular gig - disguised employees do not hire staff.

**d000hg** · 11 October 2012, 12:34

I've just done it for the first time, but for a specific facet of the work I told them up-front I wasn't experienced with. I have substituted myself about 75%, in other words I do 1 day a week of work for the client still and the other guy does the other 4 days.

**northernladuk** · 11 October 2012, 12:45

Originally posted by d000hg View Post

I've just done it for the first time, but for a specific facet of the work I told them up-front I wasn't experienced with. I have substituted myself about 75%, in other words I do 1 day a week of work for the client still and the other guy does the other 4 days.

And this guy is employed and managed by you? Odd situation but sounds like a good win if that is the case.

**Butcheroo** · 11 October 2012, 13:06

Trying to arrange a substitute

Originally posted by northernladuk View Post

And by acting like a one man band trying to be a business you fail......

I don't understand your attitude. Most people on here will be one man band contractors trying to do their best to stay within the rules whilst earning what they can net

If I were a real business with employees i would not be on here asking a question would I.

When I said peer I meant people I had worked with in the past on other contracts.

**northernladuk** · 11 October 2012, 15:23

Originally posted by Butcheroo View Post

I don't understand your attitude. Most people on here will be one man band contractors trying to do their best to stay within the rules whilst earning what they can net

If I were a real business with employees i would not be on here asking a question would I.

When I said peer I meant people I had worked with in the past on other contracts.

I agree we are but (all in my opinion of course) we run valid businesses and deliver services to our clients and yes we do it within the very grey rules. What I don't think we should be doing is engineering pretend, complex or false situations to look like a business. If you need to do that then you are not a business. I am as confident as I can be that I am a business and deliver as such. If, in my delivery of the solution, I require certain things such as business cards, an office, a substitute then I deliver them. If they are not needed I don't. I just don't agree with this hiring an office to look like a business crap. If they ask why I don't have a sub or an office I can demonstrate I don't need them. I just see it as self defeating. You put up a piss poor argument to HMRC which they shoot down and they will think they have got you and will go hard. You put up a solid, real, demonstrable evidence of what you do they are the ones on the backfoot.

I do appreciate what you are trying to do but it is just the wrong idea for the wrong reasons IMO. You haven't thought about the complexities of getting clients to give your sub's log in's. Getting the client to agree, proving to the client there is a real and beneficial need and that you are better at this than they are, just a finger in wind idea with no substance. Just saying 'I need to do this to look like a business' is the wrong approach IMO.

If you do a search for business test or whatever the term is you will see we had a number of long and heated discussions about these very points.

Trying to arrange a substitute