Contracted Hours Madness

[TheFaQQer]

Thanks for the comments everyone. I have checked and there is no contract with my Ltd and the Outsource Agency so this whole 8 hour thing has no substance.

So, what exactly are you contracted to deliver in terms of time?

If the contract says that you are on a daily rate, then you are paid by the day that you do. If you are opted into the agency regulations, and can prove that you did a day, then the agency must pay you. This is regardless of whether the client signs a timesheet or not, or if they are happy or not - if you work a day, then you bill the day, the agency pays for the day. End of story.

You need to work out whether the grief (and implied D&C) is worth the hassle.

[Contractoid]

So, what exactly are you contracted to deliver in terms of time?

OK so I have now confirmed the contract chain is My Ltd>Recruitment Agency > Outsource Agency > End Client. The Outsource Agency have signed up to an 8 hour day excluding Lunch with the Client for all Contractors and claim that the Recruitment Agency have in turn signed up to this in their contract. My contract with the Agency does not stipulate any minimum hours, nor have they informed me of any contract commitment they have made for an 8 hour day. I have asked them to confirm this and an answer has not been forthcoming for over a week now (Interesting!)

In my opinion, the Outsource Agencies claim that this 8 hour contract term automatically flows down into my contract between my Ltd and the Agency is ludicrous. My contract with the Recruitment Agency would have to stipulate that the terms between ABC Agency and XYZ Agency automatically flow down - it doesn't Anyone with greater knowledge care to comment on this?

If the contract says that you are on a daily rate, then you are paid by the day that you do. If you are opted into the agency regulations, and can prove that you did a day, then the agency must pay you. This is regardless of whether the client signs a timesheet or not, or if they are happy or not - if you work a day, then you bill the day, the agency pays for the day. End of story.

You need to work out whether the grief (and implied D&C) is worth the hassle.

My Agency Contract says day rate so you are correct. However my IR35 Insurance is invalidated if I sign up to stipulated hours of work but from what I can tell the Outsource Agency is full of hot air.

Aside from all this the place is doing my head in anyway and I won't be there much longer.

[BigTime]

Chance are all they want you to do is put an 8 in the box for each day, regardless of what actually happens. Do the needfull.

[Contractoid]

Chance are all they want you to do is put an 8 in the box for each day, regardless of what actually happens. Do the needfull.

Nope. The boss and several spies watch contractors like hawks on arrival and departure times - even lunch breaks and in one case toilet break times! Then they shop you in - its happened to other contractors (no longer there - I wonder why?). Doesn't matter how good your delivery is - its all about being seen to have your bum on your seat for at least 8 hours. This place is a joke.

[TheFaQQer]

OK so I have now confirmed the contract chain is My Ltd>Recruitment Agency > Outsource Agency > End Client. The Outsource Agency have signed up to an 8 hour day excluding Lunch with the Client for all Contractors and claim that the Recruitment Agency have in turn signed up to this in their contract. My contract with the Agency does not stipulate any minimum hours, nor have they informed me of any contract commitment they have made for an 8 hour day. I have asked them to confirm this and an answer has not been forthcoming for over a week now (Interesting!)

In my opinion, the Outsource Agencies claim that this 8 hour contract term automatically flows down into my contract between my Ltd and the Agency is ludicrous. My contract with the Recruitment Agency would have to stipulate that the terms between ABC Agency and XYZ Agency automatically flow down - it doesn't Anyone with greater knowledge care to comment on this?

This is one of the problems with IR35 - there will be terms in contracts between the agency and client which you are not aware of, but which may have a direct bearing on your IR35 status. Generally, it seems that HMRC will (shock!) take the view of whatever suits them.

Thinking back to my university days, I'm pretty sure that legally you can only be bound by a term of the contract which you aren't a party to in certain circumstances (e.g. Turquand) - it comes down to whether the agency has actual authority or implied authority to make that term on your behalf (see Hely Hutchinson v Brayhead)

It always helps to try to include a clause which says something like "in the event that a clause in this contract disagrees with any clause in the contract between agency and another third party, the clause in this contract will take precedence" - not that I've ever done it

In my absolutely non-legal opinion, I don't think that it is reasonable (or legally binding) for a clause which is in a contract between two third parties, which you have never seen to be considered as binding on you. However, if someone has some reference which contradicts, then I'll be happy to be proved wrong.

My Agency Contract says day rate so you are correct. However my IR35 Insurance is invalidated if I sign up to stipulated hours of work but from what I can tell the Outsource Agency is full of hot air.

Aside from all this the place is doing my head in anyway and I won't be there much longer.

You can only work to your contract - politely explain to anyone who questions your hours or work ethic this. You can't be held to a contract clause you aren't aware of (and reasonably wouldn't expect to be there). You just need to convince anyone who matters of this

[BigTime]

Nope. The boss and several spies watch contractors like hawks on arrival and departure times - even lunch breaks and in one case toilet break times! Then they shop you in - its happened to other contractors (no longer there - I wonder why?). Doesn't matter how good your delivery is - its all about being seen to have your bum on your seat for at least 8 hours. This place is a joke.

Have you watched Office Space? Are you a Man or a Muppet?

[Contractoid]

It always helps to try to include a clause which says something like "in the event that a clause in this contract disagrees with any clause in the contract between agency and another third party, the clause in this contract will take precedence" - not that I've ever done it

In my absolutely non-legal opinion, I don't think that it is reasonable (or legally binding) for a clause which is in a contract between two third parties, which you have never seen to be considered as binding on you. However, if someone has some reference which contradicts, then I'll be happy to be proved wrong.

You can only work to your contract - politely explain to anyone who questions your hours or work ethic this. You can't be held to a contract clause you aren't aware of (and reasonably wouldn't expect to be there). You just need to convince anyone who matters of this

I will be insisting on the precedence clause you you mentioned here. I'm finding it to be the norm that my assignments are structured this way with end clients wanting to ditch all the hassle of contractor sourcing and contract management. I believe you are correct about it not being "reasonable" to expect the end contractor to be aware of such terms but as you say, the IR will argue otherwise. Belt and Braces next time.

[Contractoid]

Have you watched Office Space? Are you a Man or a Muppet?

Both! No I haven't what are you referring too? If I viewed it was worth staying I would tell them to (politely) stop telling me how and when to fulfill my projects which I have received no complaints about in terms of current delivery and go deal with their petty internal politics with disgruntled permies which isn't my problem!

[SueEllen]

I will be insisting on the precedence clause you you mentioned here.

I'm puzzled why you didn't check with the client verbally before signing the contact.

I always check mainly because I've found in my case agencies over state daily working hours and how inflexible the client is.

I'm finding it to be the norm that my assignments are structured this way with end clients wanting to ditch all the hassle of contractor sourcing and contract management. I believe you are correct about it not being "reasonable" to expect the end contractor to be aware of such terms but as you say, the IR will argue otherwise. Belt and Braces next time.

One issue you have now is that you have checked and know what your working hours are suppose to be according to the client.

While the agency haven't come back to you, if it goes legal depending on how you phrased the question they could easily stab you in the back.

[Contractoid]

I'm puzzled why you didn't check with the client verbally before signing the contact.

I always check mainly because I've found in my case agencies over state daily working hours and how inflexible the client is.



One issue you have now is that you have checked and know what your working hours are suppose to be according to the client.

While the agency haven't come back to you, if it goes legal depending on how you phrased the question they could easily stab you in the back.

Another reason to terminate, and feedback to the client as to the reason to terminate. I don't like doing this but im not leaving myself exposed.