Clients pushing it too far - extra stuff etc?

[northernladuk]

I don't know why we go over this one over and over again. Everyone has a different opinion and every client is different so there is no hard and fast rule IMO. To me it is about doing the right thing for the right client in a situation that is acceptable to me. Manage those three properly and happy days alround.

I have done clients where I won't do a minute over what is contracted. Lack of flexibility from client, crap contract/conditions and unreasonable requests so absolutely nothing in it for me. Set my stall out early days and just stuck it through. A little unfortable at times but that is business. I have been at another client where I put enough hours in to be justified in billing but didn't. Enjoyed the work, good team, flexible with benefits, bit of time in lieu, flexible working times, had a crack at some useful internal training under the radar etc. Wins alround.

To me it's a balance of work ethic and return for doing so, not a matter of I do this regardless so no right or wrong answer IMO. If you are at a client that is causing a fuss then just plod through, suffer the crap and look forward to the next contract. Can't win em all.

[nomadd]

I don't know why we go over this one over and over again. Everyone has a different opinion and every client is different so there is no hard and fast rule IMO. To me it is about doing the right thing for the right client in a situation that is acceptable to me. Manage those three properly and happy days alround.

I have done clients where I won't do a minute over what is contracted. Lack of flexibility from client, crap contract/conditions and unreasonable requests so absolutely nothing in it for me. Set my stall out early days and just stuck it through. A little unfortable at times but that is business. I have been at another client where I put enough hours in to be justified in billing but didn't. Enjoyed the work, good team, flexible with benefits, bit of time in lieu, flexible working times, had a crack at some useful internal training under the radar etc. Wins alround.

To me it's a balance of work ethic and return for doing so, not a matter of I do this regardless so no right or wrong answer IMO. If you are at a client that is causing a fuss then just plod through, suffer the crap and look forward to the next contract. Can't win em all.

Perfect^

+rep given (and thoroughly deserved.)

[Bunk]

Fine, if that's what you want to do. But have a read of the recent LJL case - not having project deliverables of some kind and simply doing whatever you're asked (told?) to do means you are wide open to being IR35 caught.

So would you say that contractors who work on BAU are at risk of being inside IR35? I've seen plenty doing this over the past few years and wondered why they didn't hire permies to do it. They always said they were hired for expertise the client didn't have, or to cover periods of extra workload but it went on far too long for that to be the case.

I usually work on projects so there's a definite endpoint for the work I'm doing, even if there's not a clear single deliverable in my contract. Is that a safer model to work under?

[malvolio]

So would you say that contractors who work on BAU are at risk of being inside IR35? I've seen plenty doing this over the past few years and wondered why they didn't hire permies to do it. They always said they were hired for expertise the client didn't have, or to cover periods of extra workload but it went on far too long for that to be the case.

I usually work on projects so there's a definite endpoint for the work I'm doing, even if there's not a clear single deliverable in my contract. Is that a safer model to work under?

Safer model, yes, but nothing is certain. My usual brief is something along the lines of "This is not working properly, fix it" and often there is no one thing the client can point at and say "I want this result". That's fine as long as nobody's telling me how to fix it, it's the lack of D&C that's important.

My point, however, is that if you don't have some kind of endpoint deliverable, then the risk is significantly higher. In the LJL case, as soon as he switched from project-based work to picking up whatever needed doing, he was found to be inside. It's the "Whatever needs doing" bit that's the key differentiator.

[scooby]

Safer model, yes, but nothing is certain. My usual brief is something along the lines of "This is not working properly, fix it" and often there is no one thing the client can point at and say "I want this result". That's fine as long as nobody's telling me how to fix it, it's the lack of D&C that's important.

My point, however, is that if you don't have some kind of endpoint deliverable, then the risk is significantly higher. In the LJL case, as soon as he switched from project-based work to picking up whatever needed doing, he was found to be inside. It's the "Whatever needs doing" bit that's the key differentiator.

I completely do this!! As a programme or project manager I often get "this needs delivering". How i do that is my choice, skill and decision. it's the reason I'm brought in generally, to make it work at all costs. I do wonder any any PM can get caught under D&C as no one should be writing your plan or approach and then dictating to you how to follow it. You cant, there are too many variables. Thats what PMs are there for.

How would HMRC point to D&C when a PM defines the deliverables, the milestone dates and the approach?? Obviously, some dates are unmoveable, but there are drivers for that and its more about how you get there...

Back to OP, I personally agree with NLUK. My last contract saw me do the minimum hours possible due to the tulip place, culture and contract in general. At this place I love the work and within week one was on calls at 7am and 8pm the same day. The fact i dont work every hour inbetween etc is nice and my choice. It feels they take the mick with the timings, but dont care about the rest as long as the work gets done. It's how it should be. I dont work excessive hours at weekends, 2hr max, and then I take it back during the week at my leisure. My professional day has seen a 3hr day and 14hr day. My choice, not forced, and each has billed for the same day rate. Common sense, surely?

[northernladuk]

I completely do this!! As a programme or project manager I often get "this needs delivering". How i do that is my choice, skill and decision. it's the reason I'm brought in generally, to make it work at all costs. I do wonder any any PM can get caught under D&C as no one should be writing your plan or approach and then dictating to you how to follow it. You cant, there are too many variables. Thats what PMs are there for.

How would HMRC point to D&C when a PM defines the deliverables, the milestone dates and the approach?? Obviously, some dates are unmoveable, but there are drivers for that and its more about how you get there...

You have to be careful here. There are two elements touched on here and it depends on what is in your contract. If you are contracted to provide PM services to deliver project x then fine, the actualy methods you do are your own and D&C isn't too much of an issue while you apply PM principles to the plan. The bit you have to watch out for is when you are asked to provide some input in to Project y and have a quick look at project z. Do this and you are being directed and controlled in your work, not the way you PM but what you apply this to. Permies can be allocted new work at anytime, contractors (when detailed in the contract) can not. You can also count D&C as using their time booking systems, expenses, training recording. Most can be argued out as time booking is also for budgeting etc but you must be aware of everyone one and the fact you can argue it. Putting yourself on an internal skill portal so you can be allocated other work is obviously not acceptable for example.

But this is off topic from the original question so will leave this argument for another thread.

[psychocandy]

Safer model, yes, but nothing is certain. My usual brief is something along the lines of "This is not working properly, fix it" and often there is no one thing the client can point at and say "I want this result". That's fine as long as nobody's telling me how to fix it, it's the lack of D&C that's important.

My point, however, is that if you don't have some kind of endpoint deliverable, then the risk is significantly higher. In the LJL case, as soon as he switched from project-based work to picking up whatever needed doing, he was found to be inside. It's the "Whatever needs doing" bit that's the key differentiator.

Interesting...

But of course, being a developer lends itself more easily to being able to produce a deliverable. Not so easy when you're providing support/consultancy on a project.

And not so easy to fix something yourself when you're dealing with client-written software (actually from offshore team) and are trying to get them to fix.

[malvolio]

Interesting...

But of course, being a developer lends itself more easily to being able to produce a deliverable. Not so easy when you're providing support/consultancy on a project.

And not so easy to fix something yourself when you're dealing with client-written software (actually from offshore team) and are trying to get them to fix.

That's why I charge so much...

[Ignis Fatuus]

I don't answer my work contacts at weekends.

But you always get the awkward git of a client who thinks that you are obliged to.

I once recently had my phone and laptop switched off for most of one morning, when I was on a week's pre-arranged absence from work. I switched on at 11:00 and got a string of texts, voicemails, and emails, increasingly strident, ending with the statement that he had tried to contact me all morning and I hadn't replied, and that was not acceptable.

BTW there was nothing wrong with any of my work, it was just some new "requirements" from the business. And I had arranged not to be at work that week. The permie PM just didn't understand the concept of not being at work or available for work.

I agreed 100% that something was totally unacceptable, I just differed as to what. That's why it is a previous contract, not a current contract.

[Mr.Whippy]

To me it's a balance of work ethic and return for doing so, not a matter of I do this regardless so no right or wrong answer IMO. If you are at a client that is causing a fuss then just plod through, suffer the crap and look forward to the next contract. Can't win em all.

+1, agree with everything you said. With the exception about the time in lieu bit, that's a permy thing... Are you sure you're cut out for contracting?