Miners, shipbuilders, IT contractors?

[BrilloPad]

My hope is that the decision makers of tomorrow are currently at a level where they are seeing what off shoring is like in practice and will take this knowledge with them up the career ladder.

I remember in 1992 contractors complaining that project managers were younger thamn them. Someone pointed out that IT was still new and that as IT matured the project managers would get older.

AS far as I can tell the average age of project managers is still about the same.

[Scoobos]

In fairness I have worked with British consultants from the big firms over here and apart from a desire to work 15 hour days aren't really up to much.

My hope is that the decision makers of tomorrow are currently at a level where they are seeing what off shoring is like in practice and will take this knowledge with them up the career ladder.

I hoped the same thing in 2001 when our call centre staff did the same thing - I do think that whilst it has "come around" to some extent, we still have a great deal of our call centres outsourced, but to Eastern Europe instead of India..

Lets hope IT does the same thing.

I wouldn't just blame the "Outsourcing overseas" though, as I think that the concept of cloud computing has killed a lot of roles, as it takes less staff to manage kit if it is all centralised for many businesses under 1 roof.

Despite the general thoughts that cloud computing is in its infancy, I've seen a LOT of companies buy into it in the past 24 months.

Also the generalisation of 3 types should be expanded to 4, to include the muppets I've had to deal with over the past few years - the "landed aristocracy" - crappy skills, rubbish people, but born into an easy ride.

I've met far too many directors (who make the strategy "in" decisions) that fall into that category and they are growing fast, as I.T is also simplified by outsourcing and cloud computing.. As said above, if you've got penalties for SLAs then its even easier for these muppets.

[ChimpMaster]

Chimp, It's not irrelevant. It's showing a different side to the argument. You might perceive that cost is a big factor but its not as big as it was. If a UK CTO hires a team of 9 guys to build an app and 6 of them turn out to be crap thats his problem. If he hires Wipro TATA or Logica and they all turn out to be crap its theres because they now own the risk of the project delivery and he gets late penalty payments.

If the chances of the same CTO going to market and getting 6 good guys out of the 9 it would turn the tide back towards UK onshore work. But theres too many dead weights at the moment.

Just to really cheer you up I'd guess you got canned from your last place not because you looked expensive on paper. But because you got in the way of someone politically without realising it, and they went behind your back and used your contractor status against you.

Of course cost is a factor: it is the single biggest factor in most offshoring plans. That is why quality is compromised, because the decision makers are usually bean counters or senior management who only look at the numbers.

For now there's a global shift that isn't going to cease any time soon, it's the way of the world and our work environment will look very different indeed once India and China have finished with us.

And strictly speaking, I didn't get "canned" as you put it, but there's no need for me to discuss that further. It wasn't political either - there was a much bigger shift to an Indian site and hundreds of roles were migrated, eventually encompassing mine too. So be it.

[blacjac]

IT isn't really like mining or shipbuilding by the way. IT isn't going away

I don't think the point was that IT is going away, it was that IT is going abroad, just like ship building and mining has done.

Or do you think boats are made when a mummy boat and daddy boat have a 'special' hug?

So you're saying that shipbuilding and IT can be offshored, but sex can't. Well, you're partly right.

Actually I think that saying, "Let's move our IT to India" is as half-witted as saying, "Let's move our sex to India". You have to realize what the ultimate product is to understand the consequences.

You may think that boat is coming home, but it ain't...

Erm, no.
I am saying that your insinuation that IT is not like ship building because it isn't going away is wrong, and that you have completely missed the point being discussed.

FWIW I haven't expressed an opinion either way about weather or not IT is going the way of shipbuilding and mining, but to think it can't and is different is stupid and conceited.

HTH BIDI

[darrenb]

Just to really cheer you up I'd guess you got canned from your last place not because you looked expensive on paper. But because you got in the way of someone politically without realising it, and they went behind your back and used your contractor status against you.

Or it could be that you weren't making enough middlemen rich, and they were looking to get rid of you for a long time. As I understand it, you were replaced by five hungry workers and about ten ravenous recruiters. That's fifteen families being fed now! Not to mention a new private swimming pool for some faceless guy three levels above you. Compared to these considerations, the aims of the project might look pretty trivial. Alas, we engineers tend to only think about the needs of the project, and forget about all the other things that occupy people's minds.

[bobspud]

Of course cost is a factor: it is the single biggest factor in most offshoring plans. That is why quality is compromised, because the decision makers are usually bean counters or senior management who only look at the numbers.

For now there's a global shift that isn't going to cease any time soon, it's the way of the world and our work environment will look very different indeed once India and China have finished with us.

And strictly speaking, I didn't get "canned" as you put it, but there's no need for me to discuss that further. It wasn't political either - there was a much bigger shift to an Indian site and hundreds of roles were migrated, eventually encompassing mine too. So be it.

Hi, I wasn't trying to annoy you. Sorry If I caused offence.

If cost was really an issue. most outsourcing wouldn't happen. I get involved with the numbers as part of my job and am going to a cost review tomorrow. The firm in question are expecting to replace 500k worth of contractors with £1.2 millions worth of service. They like that idea because they think they are replacing the risk a good team of contractors walking away with a company willing to back them with an SLA.

Truth is stranger than fiction.

[Scrag Meister]

I used to work as a perm for a large News and Financial information company.

They outsourced most of the English speaking data processing roles to Bangalore. Last thing I heard from a colleague of mine who was involved in this move was that they weren't too sure if they were actually saving any money.

They even have a large office in Gdansk now as it worked out cheaper. Poland is the new Bangalore.

[SussexSeagull]

Of course cost is a factor: it is the single biggest factor in most offshoring plans. That is why quality is compromised, because the decision makers are usually bean counters or senior management who only look at the numbers.

For now there's a global shift that isn't going to cease any time soon, it's the way of the world and our work environment will look very different indeed once India and China have finished with us.

And strictly speaking, I didn't get "canned" as you put it, but there's no need for me to discuss that further. It wasn't political either - there was a much bigger shift to an Indian site and hundreds of roles were migrated, eventually encompassing mine too. So be it.

I believe with off shored call centres the savings have decreased in recent years, hence the trend has reversed. With salaries/rates fairly stagnate over here hopefully Indian IT people will want a bigger share of the spoils and the same might happen.

[bobspud]

They even have a large office in Gdansk now as it worked out cheaper. Poland is the new Bangalore.

Sadly not. The Polish guys are structured and deliver quality work.

[oliverson]

Sadly not. The Polish guys are structured and deliver quality work.

I'd ask the Egyptians about that one. I remember them renovating Hatshepsut's temple in Egypt and the side of it they worked on was a different colour to the other side :-) (and my missus is half-Polish so there's not racism here before anyone starts).

Also when I lived in Sussex we had a Polish maintenance man who was a real hacker (golfing term). He used to take the debris off round the corner of the garages and distribute them down the country path. Also spent most of the day maintaining and cleaning his own car instead of the grounds :-D