Miners, shipbuilders, IT contractors?

[blacjac]

IT isn't really like mining or shipbuilding by the way. IT isn't going away

I don't think the point was that IT is going away, it was that IT is going abroad, just like ship building and mining has done.

Or do you think boats are made when a mummy boat and daddy boat have a 'special' hug?

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

What you call bribery others call networking.

Ironically there doesn't need to be bribes paid to directors to get the business over there. UK IT is full of such a bunch of over paid bed wetting whinging poofs its hard to get worse, even when your alternative is a bunch of disorganised poorly spoken indjuns running amok amongst your projects like axe wielding maniacs.

I'd like to say the UK can compete on quality but every project I work on these days is split between the following camps...

1. Bed wetters. Perm & Contractors These people could be really good at what they do if they didn't spend all day whining about how they are hard done by they are. Or how doing the job is interfering with what they have to do tonight/lunchtime/the weekend or all three at once. These people really are the crux of the problem and I no longer tollerate them anywhere near me. They get told to man the **** up or go else where.


2. The climbers. Normally Perm but have met one or two contractors that seem to have forgot where they belong. These are the tulips that spend 80% of the project engaged in politics or self promotion. They too now get short ******* shrift around me and also get told to pack it in or leave. I always make sure these people get burned as hard as possible just because I don't like them. The other big trait of this lot is the ones that MUST use this great new tech because it will look good on their new CV and they want to leave as soon as they think they can get away with telling the agent how they ran X or Y project using this great paradigm...

3. The doers. These are the guys that turn up, know what you want to achieve and then get on with it, keeping personal drama to a minimum. if you ever had a successful project it was because these chaps got together out of the way of the other two bunches of arsholes and figured how to get the job done despite of them...

One of the best posts I have read on here (don't be getting too big headed though). After working for a large bank in Cheshire I saw an increadible amount of this. Out of a large team there was only me and another guy who were actually doing things, the rest were just wasting time talking nonsense and using big words to please people higher up (and in order to "climb the ladder"). Not many whiners with the amount of money they are getting paid to do jack all though....

[darrenb]

One of the best posts I have read on here (don't be getting too big headed though). After working for a large bank in Cheshire I saw an increadible amount of this. Out of a large team there was only me and another guy who were actually doing things, the rest were just wasting time talking nonsense and using big words to please people higher up (and in order to "climb the ladder"). Not many whiners with the amount of money they are getting paid to do jack all though....

I think you're both mixing up cause and effect. You're saying the English contractors are crap, so it's excusable to hire subcontinentals. But why wouldn't the English contractors be crap, if the process is subcontinental and the wages are subcontinental and the profession has been reduced to Third World status, so that only crap English contractors will exist and apply in the first place?

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

I think you're both mixing up cause and effect. You're saying the English contractors are crap, so it's excusable to hire subcontinentals. But why wouldn't the English contractors be crap, if the process is subcontinental and the wages are subcontinental and the profession has been reduced to Third World status, so that only crap English contractors will exist and apply in the first place?

Contractors? I am talking about Permies........

[ChimpMaster]

Contractors? I am talking about Permies........

I think Bob Spud's post is irrelevant (sorry, I know you spent loads of time writing it up) because this thread is about the loss of industry to other countries. It's also the case that this movement of work often results in far reduced quality/output/time to market etc, and has no real cost savings.

Those are the issues being discussed here.

Going back to Bob's post, no matter which of his 3 categories you fall into, your role is at risk of being offshored. At my previous client, I was the very best in what I do, within the whole European organisation, and rated very highly. But - as a contractor - I was deemed expensive, on numbers alone, and so they hired 5 inexperienced offshore staff to deal with my workload. And of course it takes them that much longer to get anything done now, but the client soon gets used to that.

There was a very clear backhander approach to what was going on there, and very little logic.

[DodgyAgent]

I don't think the point was that IT is going away, it was that IT is going abroad, just like ship building and mining has done.

Or do you think boats are made when a mummy boat and daddy boat have a 'special' Tug?

FTFY

[SussexSeagull]

In fairness I have worked with British consultants from the big firms over here and apart from a desire to work 15 hour days aren't really up to much.

My hope is that the decision makers of tomorrow are currently at a level where they are seeing what off shoring is like in practice and will take this knowledge with them up the career ladder.

[darrenb]

I don't think the point was that IT is going away, it was that IT is going abroad, just like ship building and mining has done.

Or do you think boats are made when a mummy boat and daddy boat have a 'special' hug?

So you're saying that shipbuilding and IT can be offshored, but sex can't. Well, you're partly right.

Actually I think that saying, "Let's move our IT to India" is as half-witted as saying, "Let's move our sex to India". You have to realize what the ultimate product is to understand the consequences.

You may think that boat is coming home, but it ain't...

[bobspud]

One of the best posts I have read on here (don't be getting too big headed though). After working for a large bank in Cheshire I saw an increadible amount of this. Out of a large team there was only me and another guy who were actually doing things, the rest were just wasting time talking nonsense and using big words to please people higher up (and in order to "climb the ladder"). Not many whiners with the amount of money they are getting paid to do jack all though....

Thanks. I am owning one of these sorts of projects at the moment. I feel for you

I think you're both mixing up cause and effect. You're saying the English contractors are crap, so it's excusable to hire subcontinentals. But why wouldn't the English contractors be crap, if the process is subcontinental and the wages are subcontinental and the profession has been reduced to Third World status, so that only crap English contractors will exist and apply in the first place?

I am not crap at my job. I earn a bloody fortune though.

No I am saying that to the average IT director that needs to build a team and run a service, many of the prats that are in the UK IT pool make it too easy to pick an incompetent foreign national and then try to protect yourself with SLA's that contain heavy penalties for down time... rather than try to pick half a dozen type 3's from a list containing 1's & 2's at best...

I think Bob Spud's post is irrelevant (sorry, I know you spent loads of time writing it up) because this thread is about the loss of industry to other countries. It's also the case that this movement of work often results in far reduced quality/output/time to market etc, and has no real cost savings.

Those are the issues being discussed here.

Going back to Bob's post, no matter which of his 3 categories you fall into, your role is at risk of being offshored. At my previous client, I was the very best in what I do, within the whole European organisation, and rated very highly. But - as a contractor - I was deemed expensive, on numbers alone, and so they hired 5 inexperienced offshore staff to deal with my workload. And of course it takes them that much longer to get anything done now, but the client soon gets used to that.

There was a very clear backhander approach to what was going on there, and very little logic.

Chimp, It's not irrelevant. It's showing a different side to the argument. You might perceive that cost is a big factor but its not as big as it was. If a UK CTO hires a team of 9 guys to build an app and 6 of them turn out to be crap thats his problem. If he hires Wipro TATA or Logica and they all turn out to be crap its theres because they now own the risk of the project delivery and he gets late penalty payments.

If the chances of the same CTO going to market and getting 6 good guys out of the 9 it would turn the tide back towards UK onshore work. But theres too many dead weights at the moment.

Just to really cheer you up I'd guess you got canned from your last place not because you looked expensive on paper. But because you got in the way of someone politically without realising it, and they went behind your back and used your contractor status against you.

[oscarose]

What you call bribery others call networking.

Ironically there doesn't need to be bribes paid to directors to get the business over there. UK IT is full of such a bunch of over paid bed wetting whinging poofs its hard to get worse, even when your alternative is a bunch of disorganised poorly spoken indjuns running amok amongst your projects like axe wielding maniacs.

I'd like to say the UK can compete on quality but every project I work on these days is split between the following camps...

1. Bed wetters. Perm & Contractors These people could be really good at what they do if they didn't spend all day whining about how they are hard done by they are. Or how doing the job is interfering with what they have to do tonight/lunchtime/the weekend or all three at once. These people really are the crux of the problem and I no longer tollerate them anywhere near me. They get told to man the **** up or go else where.

2. The climbers. Normally Perm but have met one or two contractors that seem to have forgot where they belong. These are the tulips that spend 80% of the project engaged in politics or self promotion. They too now get short ******* shrift around me and also get told to pack it in or leave. I always make sure these people get burned as hard as possible just because I don't like them. The other big trait of this lot is the ones that MUST use this great new tech because it will look good on their new CV and they want to leave as soon as they think they can get away with telling the agent how they ran X or Y project using this great paradigm...

3. The doers. These are the guys that turn up, know what you want to achieve and then get on with it, keeping personal drama to a minimum. if you ever had a successful project it was because these chaps got together out of the way of the other two bunches of arsholes and figured how to get the job done despite of them...

WBOBS+100