Trying to hire Java programmers

[nomadd]

Thanks to all for their responses to date.

Java Developer for Top Investment Bank, Bournemouth Hampshire/Dorset Bournemouth, Dorset/Hampshire Permanent IT Job

Same location as your job. And they are looking for multiple Java guys. And they are offering: £50k to £70k basic + substantial annual bonus + benefits

As other posters have said, you'll get tons of interest, but only if The Price is Right (tm).

[Mullanrail]

Thanks Nomadd.

I've seen other ads like this. Again it leads me to a couple of questions..... (I'm really showing my ignorance of the market here!!!)

They are looking for experienced people, so will pay well for it. Where do people get that experience? They must get it in other jobs, before going for the big gigs? I think maybe we are trying to position ourselves as one of those "before" jobs. Is that reasonable? Or do you just say "what the hell" and go direct to the big guns?

And then, back to the original question again: Do they actually manage to fill these jobs?

thanks again nomadd.

Conor

[eek]

[*]How might one go about recruiting from places like Eastern Europe? [/LIST]

Thanks to all for their responses to date.

You don't try and recruit from Eastern Europe and bring them here, employ them there and pay them well above their market rate. They will live like kings and have no where to go to, you'll have good staff with no ability to leave.

To be frank you're problem is location. Bournemouth doesn't have much of a java market and few people will willing move there for a job. Contractors move around the country permies will accept peanuts if its all that is available where they live but they won't move as that costs £15-20k.

[jmo21]

It's difficult to comment living nowhere near Bournemouth.

Maybe Bournemouth just doesn't have a large amount of people who program Java, which may be driven by the number of jobs.

In your experience have there ever been many java jobs advertised there? Have you yourself worked in multiple java jobs there. What about your network of colleagues/former colleagues?

[Mullanrail]

In your experience have there ever been many java jobs advertised there? Have you yourself worked in multiple java jobs there. What about your network of colleagues/former colleagues?

sadly I was one of those non-IT contractors that existed in the edge of contractor-land. I therefore know naff all about Java apart from what our current team tell me at a pseudo-technical level.

my knowledge of the market is therefore limited to what agents tell me, and what I can find on job sites. but it's not the biggest market ever. As said above, maybe it's because it's Bournemouth?

[nomadd]

Thanks Nomadd.

I've seen other ads like this. Again it leads me to a couple of questions..... (I'm really showing my ignorance of the market here!!!)

They are looking for experienced people, so will pay well for it. Where do people get that experience? They must get it in other jobs, before going for the big gigs? I think maybe we are trying to position ourselves as one of those "before" jobs. Is that reasonable? Or do you just say "what the hell" and go direct to the big guns?

And then, back to the original question again: Do they actually manage to fill these jobs?

thanks again nomadd.

Conor

Nope, they struggle to fill these jobs. So then they just lower (and lower) their sights until they get a bite. Usually a Grad with a couple of years experience. And even then they have to provide a full career path with lots of training, progression, etc.

We've got a couple of recent Grads here (IB, London) and they have started on £25-30k. With just a couple of years experience (if they are smart) they could easily be doubling that. (FWIW: I went from £7k as a Grad to £24k in under two years as a permie by switching jobs; then £65k (that was my first contract) less than 6 months later... All of the young people I speak to today want to be "in London", for the social life and because it's where their friends are after graduation; in comparison, they see Bournemouth as a place were "old people go to die."

The problem with Bouremouth - a mate of mine is at JP there at the moment - is that it's bloody expensive; and close to London. My mate turned down JP - twice - until they came up with a "London rate". They had dragged their heels for weeks over rates, saying "We aren't in London". Problem is, when you are just as expensive as London and offer far less local opportunities, then - good - people will simply go elsewhere (unless you can come up with the money, as they did in my mates case...)

It's a quiet time of the year for jobs at the moment (will pick up after the holidays), but there are still 2,000 Java permie jobs on Jobserve (and 750+ contracts); I'd say 90% of those are in the South East. So I'm afraid you are going to have to offer something "special" to attract people. And with the insane living costs in the SE, that special probably means a lot more money.

Just my two cents.

[Mullanrail]

Nope, they struggle to fill these jobs. So then they just lower (and lower) their sights until they get a bite. Usually a Grad with a couple of years experience. And even then they have to provide a full career path with lots of training, progression, etc.

yeah that's what where we are at. No bites yet though and our criteria are getting lower, and lower, and lower....

It's a quiet time of the year for jobs at the moment (will pick up after the holidays), but there are still 2,000 Java permie jobs on Jobserve (and 750+ contracts);

Is C any better/worse?

[DaveB]

JamJar

I was paraphrasing a lot above, because I didn't want to cut/paste the whole ad. Of course it doesn't say about balls. That would just be stupid. Years ago I was very active on this board under another name and I posted enough times to know that I can throw in the odd rude word without it being taken literally. Maybe times have changed. My apologies. What we state is this: You will be part of a small team initially but, if you show the right attitude, dedication, talent and innovation, you will have the opportunity to progress your career quicker than at most other companies.. Is that better?

For pay, in our generic description we state: "Salary: £negotiable, dependent on experience." We did have a salary range in there (18-30K for grads), but took it out when we increased the range to more experienced guys. We felt that if we said salary range was "18-50K" it would look too vague, so we wrote in letters what the numbers mean. The agents have the details and depending on who they are talking to or where they are posting their ads, they narrow the range accordingly.

Getting back to the core topic, I'm interested to know more about:

1. General state of Java market. Is it over/under populated? Are other recruiters finding it hard to get Java people?
2. How might one go about recruiting from places like Eastern Europe?

Thanks to all for their responses to date.

Run two separate ad's. One for juniors, one for seniors with salary ranges as appropriate. The biggest turn off for any job applicant is not knowing what the salary will be, or is likley to be. Especially for new grads who have no idea what the market is worth to begin with.

[nomadd]

Is C any better/worse?

Problem with C is it's pretty "old hat". Most younger guys will have been trained in an OO language and won't want to revert back to it. Most older C guys will have long since moved on through C++ and Java (and maybe C# too.)

Maybe you could approach a few local Uni.'s/Colleges direct? That's how I got started (worked for a local company to my Uni. writing firmware in C and 68k assembler.) Just a thought.

[Mullanrail]

Run two separate ad's. One for juniors, one for seniors with salary ranges as appropriate. The biggest turn off for any job applicant is not knowing what the salary will be, or is likley to be. Especially for new grads who have no idea what the market is worth to begin with.

yep. done/doing that. still

conor