Trying to hire Java programmers

[Mullanrail]

Hello folks,

I started contracting about 12 years ago and now run a small, successful consultancy. Recently we started developing and selling our own software and demand is good. However, i'm damned if I can find any java programmers to join the team and we've been advertising extensively for months now.

Does anyone know what the general Java market is like right now? Are there really no java programmers at any level (student placements, grads, experienced coders) looking for work? I thought there were hundreds (thousands?) of graduates, programmers, all sorts our there in tough-economy-land. But it seems that's not the case and they already all have jobs they love. We really are drawing a complete blank and I can't understand why so thought I'd ask if anyone had any knowledge of the market in general.

Where can I find Java people?!! Any tips greatly appreciated.
Cheers
MR

[DodgyAgent]

Hello folks,

I started contracting about 12 years ago and now run a small, successful consultancy. Recently we started developing and selling our own software and demand is good. However, i'm damned if I can find any java programmers to join the team and we've been advertising extensively for months now.

Does anyone know what the general Java market is like right now? Are there really no java programmers at any level (student placements, grads, experienced coders) looking for work? I thought there were hundreds (thousands?) of graduates, programmers, all sorts our there in tough-economy-land. But it seems that's not the case and they already all have jobs they love. We really are drawing a complete blank and I can't understand why so thought I'd ask if anyone had any knowledge of the market in general.

Where can I find Java people?!! Any tips greatly appreciated.
Cheers
MR

Eastern Europe

[eek]

Eastern Europe

Its annoying when you have to agree but you should head east. The women are better too.

[Mullanrail]

DodgyAgent

I think I remember you from my previous life on CUK, back in about 2001-2005? It was all milanbenes, Alf Pruffock, and some others I can't remember. I had a different user name (just Conor) and about 3,000 posts. They were the days..... You weren't really that dodgy I remember.....

Anyway, I was thinking about Eastern Europe. Despite my best google efforts, I've had no luck finding inroads into getting an idea on candidates there. Are you (or anyone else?) able to help source people from there?

Thanks
Conor

[darrenb]

You will find plenty of people locally if you are willing to pay market rates.

Market rates = how far you have to raise your offer before people are interested.

(By the way, don't use recruiters. They will always give you cheap people they can get huge margins on, rather than people who can actually help your business.)

[Stan]

How much are you offering (and are you London)? Maybe the job desc just sounds too much work for what you are offering to pay. I do hear the market isn't bad though.

[Mullanrail]

the job is an entry level job, based in Bournemouth.
The job description therefore says (more or less): You have to have graduated with a decent degree in IT, you have to know roughly how to program, you have to have a bit of enthusiasm, you don't have to have all the answers (we have contractors for that!), you have to have the balls to work in a small team that's going places.
And then for salary it says: Tell us what you want as we consider each application on a case by case basis but expect to earn above your peers.

There are obviously more refined and specific details in the ad (and less woolly phrases like the bits above) but I don't think it offends anyone, has unrealistic requirements, or asks someone to do the job of a senior programmer for peanuts.

Seriously, we have tried everything, and widened our scope from grads up to experts, down to placement students, to anything we think might give the agencies something more to go on. And nada, zip back.

[Mullanrail]

(By the way, don't use recruiters. They will always give you cheap people they can get huge margins on, rather than people who can actually help your business.)

for contract maybe, but for permie (which this role is) I don't believe that to be the case. In fact it is in their interests to give you the most qualified/expensive person they can given it's a % of first year salary commission, refundable if the person turns out to be rubbish. We've used agencies for permie roles for years and I'm perfectly happy with their model. It works for us as employers, it seems to work for them as .....as.... well... well as whatever they are

[JamJarST]

the job is an entry level job, based in Bournemouth.
The job description therefore says (more or less): You have to have graduated with a decent degree in IT, you have to know roughly how to program, you have to have a bit of enthusiasm, you don't have to have all the answers (we have contractors for that!), you have to have the balls to work in a small team that's going places.
And then for salary it says: Tell us what you want as we consider each application on a case by case basis but expect to earn above your peers.

There are obviously more refined and specific details in the ad (and less woolly phrases like the bits above) but I don't think it offends anyone, has unrealistic requirements, or asks someone to do the job of a senior programmer for peanuts.

Seriously, we have tried everything, and widened our scope from grads up to experts, down to placement students, to anything we think might give the agencies something more to go on. And nada, zip back.

The bit I have highlighted would ring alarm bells in my head if I was reading the ad. It almost sounds like a scam ad, a bit like those "earn as much as you like working from home" ones you get in your inbox.

Also, does your ad really say you have to have the balls to work in a small team??? That screams unprofessionalism and sounds like a typical sales pitch/selling role.

[Mullanrail]

Note to self: Don't paraphrase

JamJar

I was paraphrasing a lot above, because I didn't want to cut/paste the whole ad. Of course it doesn't say about balls. That would just be stupid. Years ago I was very active on this board under another name and I posted enough times to know that I can throw in the odd rude word without it being taken literally. Maybe times have changed. My apologies. What we state is this: You will be part of a small team initially but, if you show the right attitude, dedication, talent and innovation, you will have the opportunity to progress your career quicker than at most other companies.. Is that better?

For pay, in our generic description we state: "Salary: £negotiable, dependent on experience." We did have a salary range in there (18-30K for grads), but took it out when we increased the range to more experienced guys. We felt that if we said salary range was "18-50K" it would look too vague, so we wrote in letters what the numbers mean. The agents have the details and depending on who they are talking to or where they are posting their ads, they narrow the range accordingly.

Getting back to the core topic, I'm interested to know more about:

1. General state of Java market. Is it over/under populated? Are other recruiters finding it hard to get Java people?
2. How might one go about recruiting from places like Eastern Europe?

Thanks to all for their responses to date.