Opt out of Conduct of employment agencies 2003 act?

[andrewb]

Glad I've found this thread (wasn't too hard, since it's sticky).

Been offered a contract that specifies that myco opts out from the regulations, that myco only provides opted out workers, and a separate page that looks like a personal declaration that I, as an individual, am freely choosing to opt out.

Agent knows that I've already been introduced to the client and provided services to them, but I suppose they would argue that I'm opting out for this contract even if I was opted in previously. So I've said "not sure I want to agree to that" and they've given me the expected FUD - it's a standard contract as the majority of their clients want opted-out workers; it might affect my IR35 status; client may offer a lower rate, and I should hurry up and sign.

I asked if they already have a different standard contract for "opt in" (and I'm guessing that the inclusion of "opt out" in the filename of the document is a clue here) but they (say they) don't. I've proposed that a new contract be drafted with any clauses relating to "out out" simply removed... and the matter is being forwarded to their contracts team (which I assume means that it's gone above the pay-grade of the person I've been talking to, although it could just be what the script says, a bit like when a used car salesman says he'll have to ask his manager about the price I'm offering and then goes into the back room and pretends to make a phone call).

I'm new to all this... do they waste everyone's time like this? Or just people they think are new / naive?

[malvolio]

Glad I've found this thread (wasn't too hard, since it's sticky).

Been offered a contract that specifies that myco opts out from the regulations, that myco only provides opted out workers, and a separate page that looks like a personal declaration that I, as an individual, am freely choosing to opt out.

Agent knows that I've already been introduced to the client and provided services to them, but I suppose they would argue that I'm opting out for this contract even if I was opted in previously. So I've said "not sure I want to agree to that" and they've given me the expected FUD - it's a standard contract as the majority of their clients want opted-out workers; it might affect my IR35 status; client may offer a lower rate, and I should hurry up and sign.

I asked if they already have a different standard contract for "opt in" (and I'm guessing that the inclusion of "opt out" in the filename of the document is a clue here) but they (say they) don't. I've proposed that a new contract be drafted with any clauses relating to "out out" simply removed... and the matter is being forwarded to their contracts team (which I assume means that it's gone above the pay-grade of the person I've been talking to, although it could just be what the script says, a bit like when a used car salesman says he'll have to ask his manager about the price I'm offering and then goes into the back room and pretends to make a phone call).

I'm new to all this... do they waste everyone's time like this? Or just people they think are new / naive?

Having found the thread, I assume you read it? It has no impact on IR35, as I'm sure you and they are aware.They can't make you opting out (or in) a condition of the contract. Since you 've been introduced it makes damn all difference anyway.

So one option is to play their silly game. If push comes to shove, you can prove you're opted in but they can't prove you're opted out.

As for the "benefits" of opting in, they are largely illusory and not worth losing sleep over.

[andrewb]

Having found the thread, I assume you read it?

Twice, but I doubt that it has all sunk in yet, and there are lots of externals links still to read.

As for the "benefits" of opting in, they are largely illusory and not worth losing sleep over.

The one that caught my eye as seemingly useful enough to remain opted in was the limitation on how long I could be prevented from working for the client via a route other than with the agency. Of course I don't know if I will ever want to rely on that, but there doesn't seem to be anything else being offered in exchange for giving up the protections of being opted in.

[SueEllen]

The one that caught my eye as seemingly useful enough to remain opted in was the limitation on how long I could be prevented from working for the client via a route other than with the agency. Of course I don't know if I will ever want to rely on that, but there doesn't seem to be anything else being offered in exchange for giving up the protections of being opted in.

I think you mean "that agency" not "the agency" as some clients only take on contractors via agencies.

However even that's no guarantee.

The upper contract between the agency and client may have a clause in it that means the client cannot use any workers/sub-contractors for a period of time, and regardless of the law the client respects this.

On the other hand the upper contract may have clauses in it preventing the agency from doing this and other things such as limiting how long the agent can delay paying the contractor. This means for the client can if the agency screws up have the same workers via another agency with no problems.

I've had a few agencies who haven't chased the opt-out for these reasons. They tend to have better written contracts as well.

So I tend to view any agency that chases me for an opt-out as a bunch of cowboys.

[andrewb]

I think you mean "that agency" not "the agency" as some clients only take on contractors via agencies.

Yes, that's what I meant.

[Wanderer]

I asked if they already have a different standard contract for "opt in" (and I'm guessing that the inclusion of "opt out" in the filename of the document is a clue here) but they (say they) don't. I've proposed that a new contract be drafted with any clauses relating to "out out" simply removed... and the matter is being forwarded to their contracts team (which I assume means that it's gone above the pay-grade of the person I've been talking to, although it could just be what the script says, a bit like when a used car salesman says he'll have to ask his manager about the price I'm offering and then goes into the back room and pretends to make a phone call).

Yeah, that sounds about right. They will moan and wail about having to get this signed off by the director personally and no contractor has ever opted out or caused as much fuss over nothing as you are doing. etc. etc. etc.

Stick to your guns. Remember that they can say anything they want on the phone because it's all deniable later on, it may be worth asking for all future correspondence to be in writing "for your records".

[andrewb]

Stick to your guns. Remember that they can say anything they want on the phone because it's all deniable later on, it may be worth asking for all future correspondence to be in writing "for your records".

Thanks, that's a good point. I tend to follow up phone calls with an email ("thanks for your call... this is what we discussed...") but of course that only helps me to remember what was said, and isn't going to be as good as an email from them actually saying it.

The latest mailbox surprise is a revised contract, allegedly an "opt in" one, so I guess they managed to find one after all! Reading it now, and waiting for a professional opinion from an IR35 specialist. I think it says that Myco can provide an appropriate substitute, not to be unreasonably refused, that the method of work will be Myco's own, the client is not required to supply work and can suspend the services of Myco without advance notice (and the client can require the agency to terminate the agreement for just about any reason, too) and Myco has to fix defective work at its own expense... which all seems to be heading in the right direction (I think) but I'll have to wait a few days to see.

[Wanderer]

The latest mailbox surprise is a revised contract, allegedly an "opt in" one, so I guess they managed to find one after all!

Astounding!

[Derben]

I'm expecting some pressure to "opt out". After reading this thread (it's given me a headache) I don't feel the need to opt out as it doesn't appear to affect the IR35 (though some belive it does) and it gives me more rights to stay in.

Seriously, if I do end up opting out to get the contract, is it such a big deal as it's an established company I'm working for and a well established agency.

[psychocandy]

Seems to me though a lot of these agencies are trying this opt out crap knowing full well that they aint going to get into trouble over it. Anyone know an agency that has got into trouble over it yet? I suspect not.

Must admit I'd be tempted to avoid the hassle, sign the opt out, then send a written withdrawal of the opt to arrive the day I started the contract (although admitedly the argument about already being introduced also applies here). Would be funny indeed - cant see agency hauling you out after one day - cant imagine the client would be too happy!