Perm job - asked to pay for training courses attended upon handing in notice

[Fred Bloggs]

The moral of the story is to get sacked.

[SueEllen]

What happens if she withdraws her notice? Is she still liable to pay for the courses if they terminate her? If she says that she is willing to stay after all, that may let her out of paying for the courses, but they may prefer her not to stay unwillingly, and come to some arrangement.

But I have to say that I'm with the judgemental crew: if she didn't want to stay there, why did she take the courses under these conditions?

I have friends and a family member who are various forms of accountants. It's common with accountancy permanent contracts due to the employer paying for a certain amount of training for them to put this clause in their contracts. This means they can't leave until 12 months after the employer has paid for the course, exam fees, whatever.

The trick is to get them to terminate you if you don't want to pay up.

There is nothing really they can do if you do leave except:
1. Hold your last pay
2. Refuse to give you a reference or allow anyone in the company to give you a reference. Unlike in IT in accountancy they take references from people and want a proper work history. (Yes we know they are bollocks)

What employers use to do was pay for people to get qualified and refuse to give them a pay rise. So the person involved would work for the 12 months then go off and earn a minimum of twice as much elsewhere.

I suggest your wife go and see a solicitor to check that:
1. What she has signed was legally enforceable. As everyone I know who has this type of contract was aware of the conditions before they joined the employer.
2. Check the term that the wife has been made to sign up for is "reasonable length of time".

[centurian]

Sorry? Could I just paraphrase that:
Despite freely entering into a clearly understood contract/situation I wonder if there is anyway I can wriggle and squirm my way out of it?

As I said above - play the "Big Bully" Card and they probably won't actually come after her........

Could you PM me with your Company Details, Real Name etc - because I want to be sure I never have any dealings with you in the "outside world"

If a contractor signs a restriction clause, but has opted-in to employment regs, then the restriction is invalid - and I see nothing wrong with contractors asserting their legal right, especially when the agency has basically broken the law.

If employees have legal protection against recovery of training "costs", then there's nothing immoral about demanding your rights. The employers should have never demanded it in the first place. They're the one's in the wrong.

However, if it is legal, then coughing up may be the best option...

[BolshieBastard]

Apologies in advance for the vague nature of this post and the general lack of information. I'll try to gain more info if anybody has specific questions.

Mrs. Chicane has just handed in her notice for her permanent job shortly after attending two training courses funded by her employer. She signed a piece of paper for each course stating that she would repay the costs of the course to the company if she left within a certain timescale following attendance of the course.

Her employer has now demanded payment for both courses - a total of four grand. Whilst I acknowledge that she has willingly signed the agreement on both occasions, is there any area of employment law or otherwise that would put her employer on shaky grounds in terms of being able to demand payment from her for these courses?

Also, is the employer required to provide any proof of the costs incurred in order for their demand to be valid - e.g. invoices for the courses?

I know this is an obscure question, but would appreciate any words of wisdom provided by the panel.

Oh ffs! Stop whinging, pay up and shut up. She signed the agreement and now its time for her to keep her side of the deal.

This is the trouble with far too many people in the UK today. They sign an agreement then try and wriggle out of it.

[SuperZ]

Oh ffs! Stop whinging, pay up and shut up. She signed the agreement and now its time for her to keep her side of the deal.

This is the trouble with far too many people in the UK today. They sign an agreement then try and wriggle out of it.

Agreed 1000%.

[pzz76077]

Not sure that employment law has much to do with this.

It looks like a clear example of offer and acceptance under contract law. Your better half was offered training on the condition that she stayed with the co for a certain amount of time and she signed to say that she accepted these terms.

That said there are several ways that you could mitigate the issue:

Elect to work part time (1 day a week say) as is her right. Then leave after the contracted period.

Get a quack to sign her off on long term medical sick leave. Depending on her employment contract she could expect to be paid all of her outstanding salary and then sick pay for six months till they make her redundant on the grounds that she can no longer do the job.

Withdraw her notice and just dont go back in. They will sack her sooner or later.

You may want to carefully consider what impact any action you take will have on your pension entitlement. Also what impact your action will have on your wifes future employability - forget references, and expect a black mark against her name if it goes to court- not good in financial or government clearance situations IMO.


Morally, Id agree with the other posters here - live up to your responsibilities and pay up. Not clearing your financial obligations always ends in tears and paints a negative image of your household that will haunt your family for decades down the line.



Someone remind me never to take a check from this couple.

PZZ

[vetran]

Employer can't benefit

Employer will have claimed training expense against tax.So maybe you should repay via salary sacrifice not post tax.

Any benefit they had e.g. she was MCSE which allowed them to get gold partnership has to be deducted. Any business they got because of her enhanced status e.g. she achieved chartered status and did audited accounts then that is a biz benefit. If her salary failed to increase in line with her colleagues because she had the training may be relevant.

Yes she signed but lets be serious if it didn't give the employer an advantage they wouldn't have done it. Quantifying the benefit is the difficult bit.

Yes she needs to pay something but she may be able to negotiate it down amicably. Don't blot your copy book you may need the employer or your colleagues later. Make an offer of some of the money and see how you go.

Maybe offer an equivalent value of post employment support e.g. limited evening / lunchtime email support for 3 months. They will like the insurance.


So say to them 2 months raw salary = £4k +13% employers NI, I did two audits charged at £4K + £2k which you didn't have capacity for so profit on that = 30% therefore £2k. I applied expertise I learnt on the course and saved £250. I'l provide 35 hours of free email support over 3 months max 12.5 hours a month. = £500 so I owe you £1.25k before tax = ~ £700 take home lost.

They may not like it but they may agree. If you refuse to pay then they will get spiteful. Fallback is they accept pre tax pay.

of course IANAL etc.

[pzz76077]

Employer will have claimed training expense against tax.So maybe you should repay via salary sacrifice not post tax.

Any benefit they had e.g. she was MCSE which allowed them to get gold partnership has to be deducted. Any business they got because of her enhanced status e.g. she achieved chartered status and did audited accounts then that is a biz benefit. If her salary failed to increase in line with her colleagues because she had the training may be relevant.

Yes she signed but lets be serious if it didn't give the employer an advantage they wouldn't have done it. Quantifying the benefit is the difficult bit.

Yes she needs to pay something but she may be able to negotiate it down amicably. Don't blot your copy book you may need the employer or your colleagues later. Make an offer of some of the money and see how you go.

Maybe offer an equivalent value of post employment support e.g. limited evening / lunchtime email support for 3 months. They will like the insurance.


So say to them 2 months raw salary = £4k +13% employers NI, I did two audits charged at £4K + £2k which you didn't have capacity for so profit on that = 30% therefore £2k. I applied expertise I learnt on the course and saved £250. I'l provide 35 hours of free email support over 3 months max 12.5 hours a month. = £500 so I owe you £1.25k before tax = ~ £700 take home lost.

They may not like it but they may agree. If you refuse to pay then they will get spiteful. Fallback is they accept pre tax pay.

of course IANAL etc.

The bottom line is that she signed a bit of paper to say that she accepted the Ts&Cs. Who would employ her knowing that she has the character to cause this kind of problem at the next unfortunate employer to hire her??

PZZ

[minestrone]

The moral of the story is to get sacked.

This obviously is a play. If the company are a bunch of bastards then go for it, with gusto, if they have treated your other half well then you just have to take the hit. Fair as fair.

[swamp]

* Claim the training course was rubbish and refuse to pay.

* Tell them you want to pay but you haven't got any money. Offer repayment terms of £1 a month, and include an initial cheque.

* Threaten them with an employment tribunal. Any discrimination occurred you can think of?

* Tell them that you (Mrs Chicane) have begun a new career in landscape gardening, say, and the training course no longer gives you any benefit.

* Claim you didn't go on the training course. Further, you resigned in disgrace because you knew you would be sacked for missing the course.

* Ignore them and hope they go away.

* Cut a deal with them. Offer them a grand now or you'll fight them with the above tactics.

And finally...

* Ask all the moralising, sanctimonious pr1cks on here who have told you to "pay up" to pay the £4K themselves!