Contractor or Temp Employee . . . .w

[Fred Bloggs]

I need to talk to them about this, but i am concerned about how i should approach it. It seems they are set on treating me like a temporary resource, rather than a contractor on a specific set of projects which, if i want to get anal "is what my business provides"

I had the exact same issue back in Decembr/January 07/08. A client I had been with for 6 months asked me to extend and move into another area of the business. When I got there it was clear that they really wanted a permie guy but were given myself. I tried to explain my concerns in a civil, reasoned way but the senior bloke on the section got very defensive and I regretted ever raising my concerns. Of course he understood nothing about IR35 etc (why should he?). I walked after 3 weeks. With the benefit of hindsight I regretted raising my concerns over working practices with the senior staff bloke it just made me look like a whinger and a moaner. He simply did not understand what I was on about, he'd never worked with a contract a guy before in over, I guess, a 25 year career in the one company. I should just have given my notice and walked away. Faced with the same issues again that is exactly what I'll do.

[chris79]

Did you administer it as inside ir35? I'd put up with nonsense, that wouldn't be a problem for me, but if it's ir35 caught that's a real issue.

I sat and explained that by conforming to a team structure, job title, etc that it was an IR35 issue, I always remained "I am a consultant from MyCo performing a project with skills bought in". They didn't really seem to care, saw it more as me being defiant and unwilling to accept team working and hierarchy.

The manager at clients words in our last conversation were "Sorry but that's the way it is, everyone has a boss, everyone has to do as they are told"... erm well sorry, I'm my own boss and your fictional title of "boss" (meaning between me and her) was only an honorary title she'd awarded herself expecting me to agree with it, or at the very least not question it.

[expat]

Obviously the client has work they want doing, and you're there to do it, that't why they are paying you. But if you try really hard, I'm sure you can convince them that you are not the one they want!

[Fred Bloggs]

It is a real issue and I will walk anytime I'm faced with this. It's 100% IR35 fodder, the client long term permie "bosses" simply cannot understand it at all, (why should they? I didn't know the issues when I was a permie) but I won't compromise on my IR35 status. Admittedly, under the present economic climate you'd be foolish to simply walk but I think I could land a new gig within 3 to 4 weeks if I had to.

[chris79]

Obviously the client has work they want doing, and you're there to do it, that't why they are paying you. But if you try really hard, I'm sure you can convince them that you are not the one they want!

Well if they want a modern day slave with no employment rights yet expect me to lick their ass when they say now, then yeah, they obviously picked the wrong person.

If I wanted to be an 'employee' I'd apply for a job in a company.

[Beefy198]

I sat and explained that by conforming to a team structure, job title, etc that it was an IR35 issue, I always remained "I am a consultant from MyCo performing a project with skills bought in". They didn't really seem to care, saw it more as me being defiant and unwilling to accept team working and hierarchy.

That's probably how it looks from their point of view though. They would have never heard of any of this random sounding IR35 stuff, they only know of PAYE tax and think that you're just playing at Mr Big.

I actually sympathise with their viewpoint to a degree, and as far as their concerned you're just there to do a job that they will be helping oversee.

[chris79]

That's probably how it looks from their point of view though. They would have never heard of any of this random sounding IR35 stuff, they only know of PAYE tax and think that you're just playing at Mr Big.

I actually sympathise with their viewpoint to a degree, and as far as their concerned you're just there to do a job that they will be helping oversee.

Yes and I totally agree that this is the root cause of the problem. This is why IR35 is so f**ked up, because even if you try, you either shoot yourself in the foot by accepting it (being their employee), or equally by not accepting it (and walking/terminated).

[Fred Bloggs]

Yes and I totally agree that this is the root cause of the problem. This is why IR35 is so f**ked up, because even if you try, you either shoot yourself in the foot by accepting it (being their employee), or equally by not accepting it (and walking/terminated).

Yes, but as a professional contractor you cannot compromise. It's a huge financial risk to do so. The staff guys will never understand it from our viewpoint and frankly I'm not really surprised by that. I do not want to be an employee nor do I want to behave like one. At most client co's that's been just fine and we all get along just fine till my work is done and I clear off somewhere else.

[yeahyeahwhatever]

Thanks for all your input guys, lots of great opinions, seems its a subject alot of people have views on. It is an interesting topic, and its hard to nail down.

Ultimately its very hard to know how the client is going to treat you until you are there, technically, they may well be in breach of a contract they have signed maybe? I know that my contract dictates i act/behave/ perform in a certain way, im assuming they are equally as obliged to understand what contract i have signed and thus treat me or expect to be treated by me in a certain way? Anyway. The fact is that i think that unless a company finds you say via your companys website, or, from a recommendation that 'so and so Ltd did a great job' and gets you in to do the work, as long as they deal with 'agencies' per say, its hard to know how they are going to treat you, and in this current climate, its just completely unviable to spit the dummy and look for something else, it would be a bad choice.
I like the term 'coasting' its an interesting thought. Lol. Ultimately this time could be used to be maybe refining my buisness plan, maybe partnering up with some companies and developing relationships which can help grow my buisness int he direction i wish to go. If all this was laid out ont he table, i find it hard to understand how the IR could even consider me as a 'tax dodger' when clearly that has never been and never was my intention, im trying to build a successful buisness.

If it comes down to it too, there are many companies out there that may want services for this specific purpose, skilled resources to fill a role for a period of time while an existing team is under-resouced. Utimately, that could potentially be a service my company could look to provide, theres no way my employees would be 'working' for that company, but, to give the customer what they want, if fitting into the team and exsisting tructure is what makes the customer happy and satisfied then thats the service i could provide.

At the end of the day, the way i look at IR35 etc is that it was brought in for people that royally took the michael. . and ultimatley give genuinue small buisnesses a bad name. When i started this company, i was actually amazed that the government will let me write off expenses and give allowances etc. . . i was thinking, thats great, thankyou very much, and i tried to understand what was in it for them? Well, clearly, growing the economy, and i thank them for trying to help me out. With this in mind, i have a full intention to act ethically in my buisness dealings and would not look at ever intentionally taking advantage of what i consider is genuinlely a perk from the UK Government.

Sure i can moan just like everyone else about this and that, but in the fine analysis, the only reason crappy regulations are usually brought in is because some smart ass somewhere is trying to take advantage of a system they put in place to help people out, so really, i just gotta focus on the way i go out buisness and keep it real. I think ultimately, we may read about how Joe Bloggs got caught out because he had the same colour ID card as every other employee, or that Joe had to ask bob if it was OK to take a day off rather than just say 'im taking tomorrow off to do my accounts' etc, and just get blogged down in these scary details, that make us ultimately very paranoid, but really i think what it comes down to is the 'Bigger Picture' of the way someone is working, and thier attitude. Im hoping armed with education about this legislation and a good attitude to buisness can keep things good. At the end of the day, whos got time to worry about all this stuff anyway, i know i havn't, ive got a business to run . .