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Previously on "Contractor or Temp Employee . . . .w"

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  • yeahyeahwhatever
    replied
    Thanks for all your input guys, lots of great opinions, seems its a subject alot of people have views on. It is an interesting topic, and its hard to nail down.

    Ultimately its very hard to know how the client is going to treat you until you are there, technically, they may well be in breach of a contract they have signed maybe? I know that my contract dictates i act/behave/ perform in a certain way, im assuming they are equally as obliged to understand what contract i have signed and thus treat me or expect to be treated by me in a certain way? Anyway. The fact is that i think that unless a company finds you say via your companys website, or, from a recommendation that 'so and so Ltd did a great job' and gets you in to do the work, as long as they deal with 'agencies' per say, its hard to know how they are going to treat you, and in this current climate, its just completely unviable to spit the dummy and look for something else, it would be a bad choice.
    I like the term 'coasting' its an interesting thought. Lol. Ultimately this time could be used to be maybe refining my buisness plan, maybe partnering up with some companies and developing relationships which can help grow my buisness int he direction i wish to go. If all this was laid out ont he table, i find it hard to understand how the IR could even consider me as a 'tax dodger' when clearly that has never been and never was my intention, im trying to build a successful buisness.

    If it comes down to it too, there are many companies out there that may want services for this specific purpose, skilled resources to fill a role for a period of time while an existing team is under-resouced. Utimately, that could potentially be a service my company could look to provide, theres no way my employees would be 'working' for that company, but, to give the customer what they want, if fitting into the team and exsisting tructure is what makes the customer happy and satisfied then thats the service i could provide.

    At the end of the day, the way i look at IR35 etc is that it was brought in for people that royally took the michael. . and ultimatley give genuinue small buisnesses a bad name. When i started this company, i was actually amazed that the government will let me write off expenses and give allowances etc. . . i was thinking, thats great, thankyou very much, and i tried to understand what was in it for them? Well, clearly, growing the economy, and i thank them for trying to help me out. With this in mind, i have a full intention to act ethically in my buisness dealings and would not look at ever intentionally taking advantage of what i consider is genuinlely a perk from the UK Government.

    Sure i can moan just like everyone else about this and that, but in the fine analysis, the only reason crappy regulations are usually brought in is because some smart ass somewhere is trying to take advantage of a system they put in place to help people out, so really, i just gotta focus on the way i go out buisness and keep it real. I think ultimately, we may read about how Joe Bloggs got caught out because he had the same colour ID card as every other employee, or that Joe had to ask bob if it was OK to take a day off rather than just say 'im taking tomorrow off to do my accounts' etc, and just get blogged down in these scary details, that make us ultimately very paranoid, but really i think what it comes down to is the 'Bigger Picture' of the way someone is working, and thier attitude. Im hoping armed with education about this legislation and a good attitude to buisness can keep things good. At the end of the day, whos got time to worry about all this stuff anyway, i know i havn't, ive got a business to run . .
    Last edited by yeahyeahwhatever; 23 November 2008, 23:21.

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  • Fred Bloggs
    replied
    Originally posted by chris79 View Post
    Yes and I totally agree that this is the root cause of the problem. This is why IR35 is so f**ked up, because even if you try, you either shoot yourself in the foot by accepting it (being their employee), or equally by not accepting it (and walking/terminated).
    Yes, but as a professional contractor you cannot compromise. It's a huge financial risk to do so. The staff guys will never understand it from our viewpoint and frankly I'm not really surprised by that. I do not want to be an employee nor do I want to behave like one. At most client co's that's been just fine and we all get along just fine till my work is done and I clear off somewhere else.

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  • chris79
    replied
    Originally posted by Beefy198 View Post
    That's probably how it looks from their point of view though. They would have never heard of any of this random sounding IR35 stuff, they only know of PAYE tax and think that you're just playing at Mr Big.

    I actually sympathise with their viewpoint to a degree, and as far as their concerned you're just there to do a job that they will be helping oversee.
    Yes and I totally agree that this is the root cause of the problem. This is why IR35 is so f**ked up, because even if you try, you either shoot yourself in the foot by accepting it (being their employee), or equally by not accepting it (and walking/terminated).

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  • Beefy198
    replied
    Originally posted by chris79 View Post
    I sat and explained that by conforming to a team structure, job title, etc that it was an IR35 issue, I always remained "I am a consultant from MyCo performing a project with skills bought in". They didn't really seem to care, saw it more as me being defiant and unwilling to accept team working and hierarchy.
    That's probably how it looks from their point of view though. They would have never heard of any of this random sounding IR35 stuff, they only know of PAYE tax and think that you're just playing at Mr Big.

    I actually sympathise with their viewpoint to a degree, and as far as their concerned you're just there to do a job that they will be helping oversee.

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  • chris79
    replied
    Originally posted by expat View Post
    Obviously the client has work they want doing, and you're there to do it, that't why they are paying you. But if you try really hard, I'm sure you can convince them that you are not the one they want!
    Well if they want a modern day slave with no employment rights yet expect me to lick their ass when they say now, then yeah, they obviously picked the wrong person.

    If I wanted to be an 'employee' I'd apply for a job in a company.

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  • Fred Bloggs
    replied
    It is a real issue and I will walk anytime I'm faced with this. It's 100% IR35 fodder, the client long term permie "bosses" simply cannot understand it at all, (why should they? I didn't know the issues when I was a permie) but I won't compromise on my IR35 status. Admittedly, under the present economic climate you'd be foolish to simply walk but I think I could land a new gig within 3 to 4 weeks if I had to.

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  • expat
    replied
    Obviously the client has work they want doing, and you're there to do it, that't why they are paying you. But if you try really hard, I'm sure you can convince them that you are not the one they want!

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  • chris79
    replied
    Originally posted by shoes View Post
    Did you administer it as inside ir35? I'd put up with nonsense, that wouldn't be a problem for me, but if it's ir35 caught that's a real issue.
    I sat and explained that by conforming to a team structure, job title, etc that it was an IR35 issue, I always remained "I am a consultant from MyCo performing a project with skills bought in". They didn't really seem to care, saw it more as me being defiant and unwilling to accept team working and hierarchy.

    The manager at clients words in our last conversation were "Sorry but that's the way it is, everyone has a boss, everyone has to do as they are told"... erm well sorry, I'm my own boss and your fictional title of "boss" (meaning between me and her) was only an honorary title she'd awarded herself expecting me to agree with it, or at the very least not question it.

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  • Fred Bloggs
    replied
    I need to talk to them about this, but i am concerned about how i should approach it. It seems they are set on treating me like a temporary resource, rather than a contractor on a specific set of projects which, if i want to get anal "is what my business provides"
    I had the exact same issue back in Decembr/January 07/08. A client I had been with for 6 months asked me to extend and move into another area of the business. When I got there it was clear that they really wanted a permie guy but were given myself. I tried to explain my concerns in a civil, reasoned way but the senior bloke on the section got very defensive and I regretted ever raising my concerns. Of course he understood nothing about IR35 etc (why should he?). I walked after 3 weeks. With the benefit of hindsight I regretted raising my concerns over working practices with the senior staff bloke it just made me look like a whinger and a moaner. He simply did not understand what I was on about, he'd never worked with a contract a guy before in over, I guess, a 25 year career in the one company. I should just have given my notice and walked away. Faced with the same issues again that is exactly what I'll do.

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  • shoes
    replied
    Originally posted by chris79 View Post
    I had exactly the same problem at my last place (large blue chip) where I was setup in a team, with a structure, line manager, told 'perform this process' etc, despite coming in as a consultant.
    Did you administer it as inside ir35? I'd put up with nonsense, that wouldn't be a problem for me, but if it's ir35 caught that's a real issue.

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  • chris79
    replied
    Interesting read that.

    I had exactly the same problem at my last place (large blue chip) where I was setup in a team, with a structure, line manager, told 'perform this process' etc, despite coming in as a consultant. Ultimately in the end I left as further down the line it started to cause real working relationship problems, but it certainly gave me an understanding of how large places just see you as a 'temporary worker', rather than an individual company/consultant.

    I think the problem is down to a lack of education on the clients part, I think they are under the impression they are simply hiring extra staff from an agency, rather than an agency supplying a consultant. Also if the people hiring have never worked outside their said industry they fail to recognise any other working structure, or feel their's works best so expect you to follow suit. Also if the role you are doing there was previously done by someone internal, then they see it as a non-specialist post (i.e. they don't recognise you as a consultant doing a specialist job, only a gap filler).

    In the current climate I would be tempted to just keep a low profile, go along with it then get out when the job is done. The end result will be £ in the bank, experience on CV, and once the project is complete the problem is no longer an issue, just move on. Now is not the right time for being dogmatic and challenging a situation which ultimately doesn't realistically need addressing if you chose to go along with it all. Frustrating I know, but sometimes its better to just bite your tongue. (Just my own opinion on the situation by the way)...

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  • BrilloPad
    replied
    I once applied for a public sector job in the 1991 recession. with Brighton Council. I was told were very politically correct and I might have to be careful what I said coming from a bank. I burst out laughing. I must learn not to be so mouthy.

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  • adestor
    replied
    I've worked on a few public sector contracts and the environment is always the same. People are just watching their backs and not making waves. It's all about politics and inertia to change.
    It's never going to change and it's a job - maybe it'll tide you over until things get better.
    Anyway, with all that inertia and inefficiency you'll get lots of opportunities to coast - that's what I did

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  • BrilloPad
    replied
    Originally posted by Turion View Post
    "...there was a guy that was there for one day, and then left as it wasn t for him. "

    Judging by the novel of dissatisfaction you have just posted, you should follow his example by doing the honourable thing, and leave.

    It public sector FFS, what did you expect?
    I disagree - in the current market a job is a job. Looks elsewhere - but think of the money....

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  • Turion
    replied
    "...there was a guy that was there for one day, and then left as it wasn t for him. "

    Judging by the novel of dissatisfaction you have just posted, you should follow his example by doing the honourable thing, and leave.

    It public sector FFS, what did you expect?

    Leave a comment:

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