Spoken to Prosperity4 Administrators

[WindyAnna]

the administrators have just told me that they now own the bank accounts, and the incoming money will be paid by them.

still have no confidence or trust, and am already looking at cancelling invoices just waiting for P4 to respond.

Scooby - P4 can't authorise cancelation of invoices - only the administrators can do that. Once invoices are raised they stand legally and so now the administrators are responsible.

Initial legal advice seems to inidicate that the crack with changing umbrellas is that from the point of changing ONWARDS all invoices can be raised by new company, any timesheets and invoices prior to switching companies must be raised under the old company, i.e. P4.

It is also worth noting that it isn't "our" money, it is P4's. The agency are paying P4 for your services. The contract between the agency and P4 covers that. My C of E with P4 says they will be pay, it doesn't say how much and there is no commitment to passing on these fees to me - it is in the Ts & Cs but not the contract. Interestingly this means that your agency could pay P4 but that P4 may not then allocate this money to you!

Where this leaves me - my agency haven't signed my new contract with P4 yet so I am cool to invoice this week via a new company. Prior timesheets have to be passed to P4 for invoicing - the only question is whether I will do this now or hold on to them to see what happens - if I'm not entitled to claim the money by anoteher route (and it seems that I am not) then the question is whether I want the money to disappear into a P4 fighting fund or I'd rather no-one got it! In theory P4 could force me to complete and send these timesheets on - whether they would do that is debatable.

Another evening of extreme joy lies ahead so I will pick up and go home!

Windy

[Gonzo]

Lots of newbies on this thread

I don't know anything about any umbrella going into administration, but I will chuck in my two euro cents worth.

Years ago I used to work with companies that were struggling to pay back their loans. A lot of those went into administration.

Once a company went into administration, the only people who ever saw any money out of them again were the accountants that were running it. Out of any money that was recovered, accountants fees come first, then tax, then everyone else.

So it doesn't suprise me that the accountants running this company in administration are keen for money to keep coming into the company. Once the company is wound up, that money will be theirs.

hth

[WindyAnna]

I seem to remember from the Futuro fun from earlier in the year that the amount taht the administrators can take is actually capped and can only be fees for work performed, it's still a large figure though!

Futuro's priorities were set as Secured creditors, then employees, then the revenue then unsecured creditors as far as I can recall. It used to be that HMRC were higher up the list than employees but they changed that. My understanding is that the Futuro employees will be paid.

Windy

[dazzer6588]

FC

I'm interested in your comment "I believe that they use these types of companies to bridge the shortfall in moneys from paying us to getting paid" - I certainly don't get paid by P4 until such time as they have had payment - do you? I can't see that there is a gap for them to finance - agencies do but not umbrellas.

It certainly looks like the vast majority of contractors are leaving which will leave the business pretty untenable.

The fact that they have got into this position with effectively a very straightforward business model says more about them than anything.

I was also paid this week. However, I will be moving.

My only outstanding question is at what point can I start to invoice through a different umbrella - I'm waiting for legal advice on this. At the moment I am an employee of P4 and they have a contract with my agency covering my services, at which point that contract can be moved is a degree removed from me. I await advice from my solicitor and from my agent. If anyone has any idea on this I'd be interested. When Futuro went into administration we could only vary the contract from the point at which the administrators allowed it, i.e. any backdated stuff had to go through Futuro not through our new agency or direct. I suspect that timesheets up to the point of moving will have to go through P4 but I'm waiting to hear.

Windy

thats an interesting point Windy, for those of us to don't have agencies to go through things may be different, but i suspect your right about the timesheets - although i had www.nolongerlimited.co.uk on the phone and the opinion was re-route non-invoiced timesheets through them.

[WindyAnna]

Legal advice that I have had states that the invoices are only legally payable if they were raised by the party who has the contractual relationship. This is the csae for timesheets valid during the period of the contract. If your agency or client choses to pay the invoice from nolongerlimited than that is fab for you - but if they are canny they won't cos in theory P4 could come knocking for the same money and they would have to pay it again - and the administrators will make sure that they do everything they can to recover the money!

It all depends on the contract P4 and your client/agent.

Windy

[beerbarrel]

The reason P4 have gone into administration is that they are unable to pay their creditors; they are insolvent.

The only way P4 can continue to trade is if the administrator can agree a scheme of arrangement with the creditors. However according to their contract that act allows either party to terminate the contract.

So any contractor who wishes to terminate their contract with P4 is now free to do so. Any time worked and not already invoiced through P4 can be invoiced through your new umbrella. You will need to get your new umbrella and agency to organise a new contract commencing on the relevant date.

Remember the administrator is not in a position to argue. You cannot afford to be the last man standing!

[WindyAnna]

The administrator is in a position to argue ... and will - went through all this will Futuro. Administrator threatened cleint with legal action if they did not pay for any time worked up to an including the ceasation of the contract. Legal time at client (a major organisation) inidcated that administrations were 100% in the right and therefore paid Futuro for our time, money which we will never see..

Same here, once removed from the client, even if administration is insolvency (which it isn't) then timesheets could only be invoiced elsewhere from the date that they entered that state - not retrospectively. but administration isn't insolvency, contract between P4 and agency states that "the EB may at any time without notice and without liability instruct the consultancy to cease work on the contract if the consultancy becomes insolvent, dissolved or subject to a winding up petition" - legal advice say none of these apply therefore the contract can only be terminated with due notice which is 2 weeks from yesterday. Therefore outstanding timesheets and timesheets for next two weeks have to go through P4, I can put them through another umbrella or my own limited but the agency aren't legally obliged to pay as it will be an invoice for a work done outside of any contract. If they are generous they will pay it but the administrators can and will come after them for the money to be paid to P4.

This isn't me standing by P4, I'm off, but I've been through this once this year already and I know the crack. Meanwhile a lot of other umbrellas are making statements that have no legal basis. A couple have promised me that they can raise invoices for timesheets not presented and it will be fine but when I ask them the specific question about contract dates and legality of invoices they tell me they don't know about that but that they will raise the invoices anyway - that's fine but the implication is that they'll be paid - they may or they may not. My agency has taken legal advice from REC and been told that invoices have to be paid to P4 until such time as the contract finishes. Even if the EB is prepeared to back date a contract with the new umbrella the old contract with P4 is still valid and invoices can be pursued in law.

I really hope that most people do manage to get their money by backdating with another umrella or their own limited but it wouldn't surprise me if they don't and it wouldn't surprise me if P4's administrators came after them for the money.

Windy

[Diver]

I originally posted this in Prosperity 4 HAVE gone in administration


The clients contract is with P4 not you.
The official reciever would prosecute them if they pay you a debt owing to P4.
And if they do pay you the official reciever can recover the moneys from you.

Got into the same situation in the early nineties and in the end got 40 pence in the pound back.
Good luck anyway

[WindyAnna]

Absiolutely Diver, which is why it is frustrating me that other umbrellas seem to be saying that timesheets under the P4 contract can be invoiced elsewhere and they can't. I don't want to be a doomeister but it is unlikely we can get this money by any other route than P4 - if we're lucky! Umbrellas are setting unrealistic expections - somne of the agencies were as well but have obviously taken legal advice and starting to make down on paying invoices anywhere except P4.

40p in the £ - you lucky man! I'm expecting <2p in the £ from futuro!

WA

[Cowboy Bob]

40p in the £ - you lucky man! I'm expecting <2p in the £ from futuro!

I effectively got 0p in the pound from a company that went bust - and I was a perm employee. I got my statutory compensation after a month or so. Then about a year later I got my cheque from the administrators. For about £10. How I laughed. I nearly had it framed.