Hays contracts and IR35

[spenj]

I've just had my contract reviewed and been told that it does fall within IR35. Hays IT just say that everyone working for the same company (which employs alot of IT contractors) is using the same contract and there is no scope for negiotiating the terms for IR35 purposes. Their recommendation seems to be that it is OK to still work outside IR35 'as long as you keep your head down' and they say that is what the majority of contractors are doing.
I'm new to this game and would welcome some advice - Are most IT contractors (a) managing to negotiate contracts which are outside IR35 or (b) just hoping that they won't be investigated or (c) working within IR35 and paying PAYE?

[Kyajae]

I wouldn't touch Hays IT contracts with a bargepole. They tell contractors anything they think they want to hear. Read my post on the same agency a few days back.

One good test of whether an EB understands b2b contracts is whether they start comparing you with other contractors working for the same client or through their own EB - as a way of manourveing you into accepting the terms as they currently stand. This is very much an employer to employee 'you're all in the same boat ......when in Rome you must do... mentality. Therefore, the client is likely to be the same - behaving like a school master chivvying a classroom of kids into knotting their ties properly, not negotiating with individual business owners. Those that compare (coerce) in this way clearly have no concept of each owner managed company exercising its own judgement on how it wants to operate by offering up its own terms which may be very different from others they place and may result in altering contracts to secure the gig.

The answer to your bottom question is all three. You should have tape recorded that wonderful piece of advice about contractors keeping their heads down and sent the audio clip off to Gordo. I'm sure he'd be delighted to hear it and send them the bill for all the back tax he thinks the contractors owe him. While you are at it, check to see if Hays IT are members of ATSCO. If they are, you could try sending the same audio clip to Ann Swain, but I doubt she'd be that bothered.

I've done one gig via Hays IT. Working as my own ltd co. they had a standard form called I think a HIT20 put together by their lawyers and mine was IR35 compliant. They don't negotiate the content of a HIT20 due to 'legal costs' but they were prepared to negotiate my terms for overtime, etc. They are also the only EB that paid me within 4 working days of me faxing my timesheet and invoice - that's the fastest ever I've been paid.

[PrinceNamor]

I've just had my contract reviewed and been told that it does fall within IR35.

I'm also having my Hays contract reviewed. I know it is going to fail but would be interested to know what yours failed on?

[Lockhouse]

Two people I know have had the HIT20 reviewed by industry standard reviewers as a pass. They accept that the work will be done personally but there's enough scope in the D&C and MOO to put it outside. Apparently.

[spenj]

I'm confused about the difference between the HIT20 and the contract. I had the contract reviewed rather than the HIT20, but maybe that was a mistake.

[mictech]

I left my gig with hays partly because their contract failed and they wouldn't change the contract or T&c's as everyone else was on them or up the money to cover the extra tax burden. Their t&C mainly name me and not my company, to much controll and the substitution clause which had to be appoved by the client were the main failures.

I was bored and stagnating after a year so time to move on.

[PrinceNamor]

I'm confused about the difference between the HIT20 and the contract. I had the contract reviewed rather than the HIT20, but maybe that was a mistake.

The HIT20 is the contract. The HIT20 then refers to an 'assignment confirmation letter' which I guess is what you got checked. I'm getting the HIT20 reviewed by SJD today so I'll let you know what the outcome is.

[malvolio]

PCG had a "discussion" with Hays a while back, when they had a bunch of people at one of the banks being put in the way of IR35 by some contractual clauses (which were actually to do with VAT accounting, but the old law of unintended consequences kicked in!). Took a while but the clauses were amended to take them outside IR35.

AIUI the standard HIT20 is a marginal pass, assuming the rest of your working practices justify it and there are no nasties in the schedule. It is always worth getting B&C or someone good to take a look.

[spenj]

PCG had a "discussion" with Hays a while back, when they had a bunch of people at one of the banks being put in the way of IR35 by some contractual clauses (which were actually to do with VAT accounting, but the old law of unintended consequences kicked in!). Took a while but the clauses were amended to take them outside IR35.

AIUI the standard HIT20 is a marginal pass, assuming the rest of your working practices justify it and there are no nasties in the schedule. It is always worth getting B&C or someone good to take a look.

That's interesting to know. Why did PCG decide to take up the case?

[spenj]

The HIT20 is the contract. The HIT20 then refers to an 'assignment confirmation letter' which I guess is what you got checked. I'm getting the HIT20 reviewed by SJD today so I'll let you know what the outcome is.

Thanks. My 'assignment confirmation letter' seems to be much more restrictive than the HIT20 as it includes a whole string of Appendices relating to the clients Equal Opportunities policy and other policies.