Hays contracts and IR35

[malvolio]

Thanks Malvolio, that clears up any uncertainty on that score! I'm seem to have caught you in an uncharacteristically benevolent mood today, so I'm grateful for that too!

Go read the thread on Securtity Clearance. I've been fighting that corner since 2003 and finally got a result

Mind you, the euphoria probably won't last...

[spenj]

Go read the thread on Securtity Clearance. I've been fighting that corner since 2003 and finally got a result

Mind you, the euphoria probably won't last...

I'll quit while I'm ahead in that case!

[bangface]

The HPPS20 is particularly poorly drafted. They will not make any changes to it either...

[s2budd]

Hays - Look just so no. It's not worth the bother

Hays - Look just so no. It's not worth the bother

[mwoz03]

HAYS IT Agreement IR35 compliant?

Hi all,

Thank you for visiting my post.

I have read all postings (there were not many) on an agency IR 35..but they were from 2006 /7. I would like to get some more recent advice on my issue.

I have been offered a 6mths contract work. The agent adviced it is IR35 friendly. Independent reviewer adviced that it falls inside IR35. Reviewer has stated the reasons why it is not IR35 compliant. Agent had come back and said no they will not change it. I have finally got a sample 'The Schedule' it does not include an Appendix.

I feel the agent is keen to get me to sign the Agreement and the Schedule. He called and explained the only one who will benefit from the amendment would be my Ltd Company and that they have many contractors and noone has been caught on IR35 (if so I have to proof it). He said he will make sure my personal name is not on the agreement so it should be IR 35 compliant, is that true?

My questions:

1/ I read a posting that another candidate has managed to get the work through another agent, how can I find out what other agents are available? If I ask the client, my boss-to-be is also a contractor, do you think I will be seen as being difficult ?

2/ What happens if the clauses are not changed?

3/ The agent told me that he might start to look for a replacment.

4/ Does anyone know how to minimise this impact?

5/ Is it true that 'if they have to change my contract then they have to change everyone's'?

Thank you for your feedback.

[thunderlizard]

1/ I read a posting that another candidate has managed to get the work through another agent, how can I find out what other agents are available? If I ask the client, my boss-to-be is also a contractor, do you think I will be seen as being difficult ?

No, he'll probably see you as being constructive, if you tell him why you're doing it. You're trying to find a way to help him out by taking on the work.

2/ What happens if the clauses are not changed? QDOS advises that if I am insured with them, they can present me in court but it would be a challenge and difficult to proof, if I am found guilty - what will be the worst case scenario?

I'd be surprised if you really can get insurance on a 'let's just wing it' basis. Worst case I suppose would be you have to pay the tax difference, plus criminal charge of tax evasion if it could be proved you had reason to believe you were inside IR35 but didn't pay up. IR35 is so vague though that that's unlikely. (I'm not an expert on the implications,to be fair)

3/ The agent told me that he might have to advice the client that I am not prepare to sign the contract and will start to look for a replacment.

Never be afraid to walk away. So you're not prepared to sign a commercially unsound contract? No shame in that.

4/ Does anyone know any HAYS IT contractors has been found guilty of IR35 (Not sure how to phrase this) and if so, how can I found out who they are so can so I can proof to HAYS IT that their contract is not IR35 complaint and so they have to change it?

Pass - but PCG is probably the best place to start. They might be able to pass your contact details onto someone who fits that description.
Do the IR still do their own contract-reviewing service? If so you could send it to them (using a false name and a PO box!). They'll probably say it's inside, & you'll then have a case to put to Hays; but if they say it's outside, jackpot.

5/ Is it true that 'if they have to change my contract then they have to change everyone's'?

Of course not. No such word as can't. They're free to do either. If they've got zillions of contractors on site and they really are all on identical contracts, I can see that it could genuinely be worth refusing changes to one in the interests of consistency - especially as they'd be on a tiny margin anyway. But I think that's a weak bluff. They'll have been supplying all sorts of contractors doing all sorts of things for years & there's no way it's completely consistent.

[mwoz03]

Thanks, thunderlizard =)
In point 5 the Hays IT agreement is standard for everyone (the only detail it shows is my ltd company). Once I have signed it Hays will ask me to sign the Schedule which states my ltd company details, place of work, rates, contract duration, notice period, etc but I have to push to see a sample copy and I know not all details are in there..

I know the agent is getting a very good fee for this and I am not sure if I say I will leave the contract unless it is IR35 compliant will make any difference.

Do I need to be a PCG member to email them to find out how has successfully got Hays to amend agreement and who has problems and taken to court?

Thanks again

[Bluebird]

I was with Hays a while back - wasn't happy with the HIT20, although the scedule was a bit more IR35 friendly.

The working practices were sound, and the guy I worked for understood IR35 and said he'd have no problmem in answering the questions "positvely" if hector came knocking.

I think it will take a IR3% case loss against a contractor on a Hays contract to make them change their mids, till then I think you have to hope you'll not be the test case....

[mwoz03]

Thanks Bluebird, that was very helpful. Hence they were asking me to provide a name of someone who has been IR35 challenged, and who has got the HIT20 amended. Some postings mentioned the the Schedule is more IR35 friendly, I don't think mine is and what can I do to get proof to say the work practise is outside of IR35? thanks

[Ardesco]

Do the IR still do their own contract-reviewing service? If so you could send it to them (using a false name and a PO box!). They'll probably say it's inside, & you'll then have a case to put to Hays; but if they say it's outside, jackpot.

NO NO NO NO NO!!!!

Never send it to HR for a review, they will come back saying you are IR35 caught 99% of the time, and will take 3-6 months to review it. You are then top of the list of people to perform an aspect investigation on.....

This may be all heresy, but are you willing to take the risk?