Client requests me to go permie

[dsc]

What other options do you have?

I'm in the process of doing the same but for a non-UK client and relocating my whole family. So far it's going...weird, but it might just be a Scandi culture thing. It's like they want it, but they also don't seem to give two tulips, don't seem to understand how much effort relocating means etc. So my brain is going from "yeah this is a good idea" to "this will be a bloody disaster". I'm talking them about salaries early January, so far all my efforts to get some rough numbers from them were met with "can't tell you now, but when you interview you can tell us how much you want and we will tell you if it's too low / too high". Ffs, bloody hard work this is.

[edison]

I was in the same position after being an interim Head of IT for a large company for a year.

It’s fair to say it was the one organisation where I felt most appreciated and trusted out of all the perm and contract roles I’ve ever done. I even had feedback from senior people in HR that I was not typical of most of their external consultants and genuinely seemed to care about the organisation and the team.

What was slightly different was that several senior business stakeholders were dropping some subtle hints that they would like me to go perm as they thought I was an excellent fit for the role. The Head of HR approached me, not the client manager who wasn’t even fully aware!

I did consider it carefully. The base salary was a little bit on the low side – maybe 10-15% less than I would have liked, but it wasn’t really a factor in my decision. I really liked the role, had an excellent relationship with my boss, my team was good, the commute was OK and on paper everything else seemed ideal for a perm role.

However I declined the role. Although I was outside IR35 and my working practices had been structured so I didn’t do BAU things like appraisals, approve invoices and even review the budget, I was worried about the IR35 implications.

Secondly, and most importantly I felt the company was a bit unambitious in terms of technology transformation and it wouldn’t be so good for my long term professional development. I thought I might become bored within a year. And my boss agreed.

I stayed a few more months to help recruit my perm successor. In hindsight, I wish I could have stayed another year but the IR35 risk would have always been nagging at me.

Apart from IR35, make sure you get an accurate description in writing of what the potential package would be. Depending on the role’s seniority and sector, this can easily be 50% or more of your salary e.g. pension, bonus, car allowance, private healthcare etc.

[CoolCat]

Not unexpectedly, my fairly long-term client has requested (not insisted) I go permie and I'm seriously considering it.

I'm not going to ask the noob "what should I ask for" question, rather I'd just be interested to hear the story from anyone that's been through this. How you approached it personally, and how you framed discussions with the company. It's an odd one that right now they are my client, and I talk to them in that way, which is quite different to an employer-employee vibe. We have a good relationship which is only going to be a more important factor if I say yes.

I know what I cost them, I know what salary that would equate to if the cost to them stays the same (I am outside IR35), I can work out what it would cost them for me to maintain an equivalent take-home (quite a bit more). But it's a little unusual to be talking that sort of thing, I think, as a potential employee - an employee doesn't care what it costs them only what my salary is.

I'm not unconfident talking to them about it but I haven't done this before, and I haven't taken a permie job since I was in my early twenties, applying for basic roles - rather than the pretty senior role this would be which represents someone important to their team. So I'm a bit rusty.

Any anecdotes or general thoughts are welcome. I haven't really decided what I want to do and I don't yet know if the numbers really make it feasible, though I think they probably should.

Thanks

depends on a lot of things. I have not done it myself, but I have worked alongside people who did. Motivations varied, one was getting a nice company car so they would not have to worry about the expense and hassle of insurance etc.

my main concern would be to not accept a long notice period, anything more than a month would worry me. I have been in plenty of places where a healthy working environment is changed and becomes horrible when a new senior exec is hired, and the only real defence in such situations is to be able to walk away, or make it clear that you will if XYZ is not sorted out.

[CoolCat]

What other options do you have?

I'm in the process of doing the same but for a non-UK client and relocating my whole family. So far it's going...weird, but it might just be a Scandi culture thing. It's like they want it, but they also don't seem to give two tulips, don't seem to understand how much effort relocating means etc. So my brain is going from "yeah this is a good idea" to "this will be a bloody disaster". I'm talking them about salaries early January, so far all my efforts to get some rough numbers from them were met with "can't tell you now, but when you interview you can tell us how much you want and we will tell you if it's too low / too high". Ffs, bloody hard work this is.

I was offered a perm role in Scandinavia, it all went cold when they realised I would be bringing my other half, they didn't seem to want that for some reason.

[CoolCat]

So I faced this issue as well when I did it and took advice from the usual IR35 experts.

They came to the view point that what I would be doing as a perm employee was significantly different than what I would be doing as a contractor. I got it all documented as back then it would of been my issue.

Its probably the clients problem now but if not I would defo get it reviewed and documented. Judge could just ignore but if its done by an expert it would probably carry enough weight.

you could always ask to be based at another site, helps the case that its a different role entirely.

[CoolCat]

There is also the fact that a contractor can be terminated at will. Sure permies don't have great protections anymore, but most big employers still follow the expensive redundancy process even when technically they don't need to. The risk to the company isn't the same and so they aren't going to pay the same.

employment protection for permies doesnt really start until they have been in post for 2 years.

[dx4100]

What other options do you have?

I'm in the process of doing the same but for a non-UK client and relocating my whole family. So far it's going...weird, but it might just be a Scandi culture thing. It's like they want it, but they also don't seem to give two tulips, don't seem to understand how much effort relocating means etc. So my brain is going from "yeah this is a good idea" to "this will be a bloody disaster". I'm talking them about salaries early January, so far all my efforts to get some rough numbers from them were met with "can't tell you now, but when you interview you can tell us how much you want and we will tell you if it's too low / too high". Ffs, bloody hard work this is.

Confused, you are relocating without knowing the numbers ?

[dx4100]

employment protection for permies doesnt really start until they have been in post for 2 years.

Yup and even before I went contracting many moons ago I never managed more than 18 months anywhere before moving on.

Employee protections really are more a mindset thing on both sides. Contracting the mindset on both side is you are out of the door asap. Permie, the mindset is you will be around a few years. I don't see it anymore than that - but that in the real world kind of matters for long term security I would say.

[dx4100]

you could always ask to be based at another site, helps the case that its a different role entirely.

I very much doubt the site matters... Specially these days with remote / hybrid working being a now normal thing for permies. I would say its all around the role and working practices.

[SussexSeagull]

What other options do you have?

I'm in the process of doing the same but for a non-UK client and relocating my whole family. So far it's going...weird, but it might just be a Scandi culture thing. It's like they want it, but they also don't seem to give two tulips, don't seem to understand how much effort relocating means etc. So my brain is going from "yeah this is a good idea" to "this will be a bloody disaster". I'm talking them about salaries early January, so far all my efforts to get some rough numbers from them were met with "can't tell you now, but when you interview you can tell us how much you want and we will tell you if it's too low / too high". Ffs, bloody hard work this is.

It would have to be 100% a good idea for me to up sticks to another country - let alone bring a family along - so if they seem less than excited about it and would be having a serious rethink.