Client requests me to go permie

[d000hg]

Not unexpectedly, my fairly long-term client has requested (not insisted) I go permie and I'm seriously considering it.

I'm not going to ask the noob "what should I ask for" question, rather I'd just be interested to hear the story from anyone that's been through this. How you approached it personally, and how you framed discussions with the company. It's an odd one that right now they are my client, and I talk to them in that way, which is quite different to an employer-employee vibe. We have a good relationship which is only going to be a more important factor if I say yes.

I know what I cost them, I know what salary that would equate to if the cost to them stays the same (I am outside IR35), I can work out what it would cost them for me to maintain an equivalent take-home (quite a bit more). But it's a little unusual to be talking that sort of thing, I think, as a potential employee - an employee doesn't care what it costs them only what my salary is.

I'm not unconfident talking to them about it but I haven't done this before, and I haven't taken a permie job since I was in my early twenties, applying for basic roles - rather than the pretty senior role this would be which represents someone important to their team. So I'm a bit rusty.

Any anecdotes or general thoughts are welcome. I haven't really decided what I want to do and I don't yet know if the numbers really make it feasible, though I think they probably should.

Thanks

[dx4100]

About six years ago I accepted an offer to go perm. It was the wrong choice and it was a terrible experience. The reality is I didn't want to be perm but I took for more security. It lasted about 12 months before I left and not on good terms for various reasons - most not related to me but probably not helped by the fact I didn't want to do it in the first place.

Fast forward to today and I am now mentally ready to go back perm and I am actively looking to do so. But not contract to perm at the same company, direct to perm in a new company.

My only advice is that, from my experience, contracting at the same company isn't the same as being employed at the same company. It will be different. You will be more involved in all the politics, drama and so on. The guy you get along with today may now see you as a threat and so on.

I am not trying to put you off. Just more to say make sure its what you want and are ready for it to be different.

When working out the numbers etc obviously factor in paid holidays, pension etc. Its not that far away from contracting these days.

[jamesbrown]

Bear in mind that you were almost certainly inside IR35 if you go ahead with this, and you may well be regardless. As to who would suffer the cost, that would depend on whether you were assessed under Chapter 8 or Chapter 10, but there's almost zero chance of arguing against an inside determination without a *completely* different set of working practices, having been made permie ("talking to them in that way" wouldn't remotely cut it).

If you want a permie job, better looking elsewhere, tbh.

[dx4100]

Bear in mind that you were almost certainly inside IR35 if you go ahead with this, and you may well be regardless. As to who would suffer the cost, that would depend on whether you were assessed under Chapter 8 or Chapter 10, but there's almost zero chance of arguing against an inside determination without a *completely* different set of working practices, having been made permie ("talking to them in that way" wouldn't remotely cut it).

If you want a permie job, better looking elsewhere, tbh.

So I faced this issue as well when I did it and took advice from the usual IR35 experts.

They came to the view point that what I would be doing as a perm employee was significantly different than what I would be doing as a contractor. I got it all documented as back then it would of been my issue.

Its probably the clients problem now but if not I would defo get it reviewed and documented. Judge could just ignore but if its done by an expert it would probably carry enough weight.

[jamesbrown]

So I faced this issue as well when I did it and took advice from the usual IR35 experts.

They came to the view point that what I would be doing as a perm employee was significantly different than what I would be doing as a contractor. I got it all documented as back then it would of been my issue.

Its probably the clients problem now but if not I would defo get it reviewed and documented. Judge could just ignore but if its done by an expert it would probably carry enough weight.

Right, which is why I mentioned working practices. They would need to change materially. It would need to be a completely different relationship, not just at the margins. If you're doing roughly the same work (e.g., the same project) in roughly the same way, that would be a problem. For whom, precisely, would depend on Chapter 8/10, among other things. But I would venture that, in a majority of cases where this situation arises, the client has conducted an internal review and decided that the work is BAU and justifies a permie resource. It could be that the project has moved to a new phase, though, and that may be OK if the working practices are about to change.

[dx4100]

Right, which is why I mentioned working practices. They would need to change materially. It would need to be a completely different relationship, not just at the margins. If you're doing roughly the same work (e.g., the same project) in roughly the same way, that would be a problem. For whom, precisely, would depend on Chapter 8/10, among other things. But I would venture that, in a majority of cases where this situation arises, the client has conducted an internal review and decided that the work is BAU and justifies a permie resource. It could be that the project has moved to a new phase, though, and that may be OK if the working practices are about to change.

I do think your advice is right. But again, its probably the clients problem now.

[jamesbrown]

I do think your advice is right. But again, its probably the clients problem now.

Yes, probably. Also, I didn't mean to sidetrack the thread, just noting that it's a consideration.

[JustKeepSwimming]

When it comes to salary I think it depends on the company and how much involvement the manager has.

Workout the benefits package, but only talk about the gross salary number as that's what they are used to working in. Normally it's all done with HR, which is probably preferable as it doesn't sour your working relationship.

Reality is you're going to have to take a substantial pay cut.

[malvolio]

When it comes to salary I think it depends on the company and how much involvement the manager has.

Workout the benefits package, but only talk about the gross salary number as that's what they are used to working in. Normally it's all done with HR, which is probably preferable as it doesn't sour your working relationship.

Reality is you're going to have to take a substantial pay cut.

Agreed. Your permie role will cost them roughly double your gross salary. That is the number to compare to your outside day rate.

[JustKeepSwimming]

Agreed. Your permie role will cost them roughly double your gross salary. That is the number to compare to your outside day rate.

There is also the fact that a contractor can be terminated at will. Sure permies don't have great protections anymore, but most big employers still follow the expensive redundancy process even when technically they don't need to. The risk to the company isn't the same and so they aren't going to pay the same.