Java dev transition to contracting

**TheDude** · 11 February 2022, 09:04

Originally posted by engineerer View Post

1) Do they care for certificates if I have a limited hands-on experience with a technology - eg. privotal spring, aws developer, oracle java 11? Is experience in side projects more pragmatic? I'm guessing nobody will read code on github if I keep my side projects there?... Or will they?

In my experience most certifications are useless - if you are not confident that you can walk into an interview and write code then you are probably not ready for contracting yet unless you are happy to accept a low rate.

Github side projects are a good way of demonstrating experience to employers if they are of a reasonable standard.

**northernladuk** · 11 February 2022, 10:23

Originally posted by engineerer View Post

I've done over 5 years in permanent roles, but only a part of it using the latest tech stack, that is microservices with spring boot and cloud, always Java 8 at the most. Not sure if it matters but I graduated being older than an average graduate, so I'm past my 30 birthday having just 5 years of experience in a technical role.
I'm rather far from London currently but I'm seriously considering moving somewhere around this year summer at the latest. Although I will definitely prefer WFH/remote roles or 1-2 days a month in the office.

When you graduated makes no difference. All an agent/client will care about is how much experience you have delivering exactly what is on the role spec. I mean exactly as well, not 'I can do'. There will be 100's of contractors that have just delivered what the client wants so they will pick someone who's done it already and can bring added value.
I'd say you are going to struggle badly with less than 3 years experience when a client wants an expert in their field. There is going to be very little evidence of your saleable skills on your CV but there will be a pile of people delivering exactly what the client wants for many years if not decades. You are currently a junior at best, not an industry expert.
WFH with a couple of days at most in the office will be the norm going forward for awhile at the moment. Unfortunately that's bad for you as it is a benefit for every contractor in the country so more competition for the roles.

1) Do they care for certificates if I have a limited hands-on experience with a technology - eg. privotal spring, aws developer, oracle java 11? Is experience in side projects more pragmatic? I'm guessing nobody will read code on github if I keep my side projects there?... Or will they?

Would you get a builder in to build your extension with a handful of City & Guilds certs or would you pick a builder that's done 100's of extensions? You'd pick the experienced guy. Certs are no use whatsoever. You need to be a specialist in your field and have years of experience delivering exactly what the client wants starting on day one. No learning curve in contracting.

2) How likely is it to find jobs/gigs where you work on something from scratch or with a ready design? Or is it also mostly about maintaining old/bad code as in most of permanent roles?

In my experience (I'm in Service Transition/Design) I'm always brought in late because they've forgotten it or thought they didn't need it. I have to step in and provide a plan on day one or two. Part of the skill of a contractor is to start delivering on day one. No week long induction or anything. We are brought in, often at short notice, because the client has a requirement and it's usually now. You could be replacing someone that's left of gone off sick so not uncommon to be dropped straight in it. Rare in my world that you get in early enough for a nice slow ramp up from scratch. Luck of the draw but I'd say you are most likely to come in to problems or late.

3) In one of the other threads here I read that developers have no problem at all finding contracts nowadays - I don't remember the exact wording of that post but it a bit of as a witty exaggeration. Is it actually that easy if you have skills/experience?

If you are the best in your field then contracting is good at the moment. You can pick and chose the gigs. If you have no contracting experience or skills to sell you are going to be a bit of way down the list.

4) Do you alwasy work as a part of an agile team? Is it possible to find jobs where you deliver and communicate just to clarify requirements, or is more like freelancing?

Everything I've done has been agile in the last three or four years so you've got to expect it. Proper consultancy is around but those roles will be snapped up by the very experienced types.

5) Can I work from anywhere? Or is it a standard 6 months rule in the tax context (considering outside IR35)? Or is it a question for an accountant?

Depends on the gig. There is no standard in contracting. Someone gigs are fully remote and people are doing them in other countries. Some need three days in the office but they won't care where your home office is. Some clients have geographical limits on working. Public sector don't allow data out of the country so you'll be UK based for them but if you can meet their office needs then where you are in the UK when you are WFH doesn't matter.
No idea what 6 month rule in tax is. I know of no such thing. Engagements are not standard either. Some are 3, 6 or even 12 months. Depends on the clients requirement. Usually dependant on the clients budget cycle so 3 months is common but also on the length of the gig.

Outside gigs aren't as common as they used to be and they will be snapped up by the experienced people. Expect to be inside and anything else is bonus.

6) Is it usually possible to walk away from a job? Is there such clause in the contract? Let's say if the job turned out to be a complete crap, toxic environment or other things.

It's not a job. You've got to re-align your thinking. Your job is being a contractor. The things you do are gigs for clients as a supplier.
There is always a notice period in contracts so you can hand in your notice and leave but you've got to be very careful doing this. It's unlikely you'll get paid your last invoice cause agents get the hump. Illegal but it happens. If you do this a little too often it will show on your CV as well. No one wants a contractor that's got a load of very short gigs on their CV.
Remember though this goes both ways and is worse for you. The client can, and does, terminate the contract with you. What's worse is they don't need to wait notice either. There will be a clause in the contract saying you only get paid with a signed timesheet. They do not have to offer you work. You could turn up on Wednesday and they say they don't want you Thursday onwards so you do no more work so no more timesheets. They contract will expire as per the notice period but you do no work do don't get a penny. Effectively instant termination. You cannot do this. You are contracted to do the work they offer. It's lop sided but that's a client/supplier relationship for you. It's not always a level playing field.

**engineerer** · 11 February 2022, 12:04

Originally posted by TheDude View Post

Github side projects are a good way of demonstrating experience to employers if they are of a reasonable standard.

Do you think you could elaborate a bit on the 'reasonable standard' part?

**northernladuk** · 11 February 2022, 12:06

Originally posted by TheDude View Post

Github side projects are a good way of demonstrating experience to employers if they are of a reasonable standard.

To who?

**SueEllen** · 11 February 2022, 12:53

Originally posted by engineerer View Post

Do you think you could elaborate a bit on the 'reasonable standard' part?

Would you be happy showing that code to a group of your peers or doing a talk using it?

**TheDude** · 11 February 2022, 12:59

Originally posted by engineerer View Post

Do you think you could elaborate a bit on the 'reasonable standard' part?

Something that would not be ripped to shreds in a code review.

If you are unable to judge the quality of your own output then with respect you are not ready to enter the world of contracting.

**engineerer** · 11 February 2022, 13:11

Originally posted by northernladuk View Post

I'd say you are going to struggle badly with less than 3 years experience when a client wants an expert in their field. There is going to be very little evidence of your saleable skills on your CV but there will be a pile of people delivering exactly what the client wants for many years if not decades. You are currently a junior at best, not an industry expert.

Would you get a builder in to build your extension with a handful of City & Guilds certs or would you pick a builder that's done 100's of extensions? You'd pick the experienced guy. Certs are no use whatsoever. You need to be a specialist in your field and have years of experience delivering exactly what the client wants starting on day one. No learning curve in contracting.

I guess that's the reality check I needed... not only what's above but the whole answer, I appreciate that.

Originally posted by northernladuk View Post

In my experience (I'm in Service Transition/Design) I'm always brought in late because they've forgotten it or thought they didn't need it. I have to step in and provide a plan on day one or two. Part of the skill of a contractor is to start delivering on day one. No week long induction or anything. We are brought in, often at short notice, because the client has a requirement and it's usually now. You could be replacing someone that's left of gone off sick so not uncommon to be dropped straight in it. Rare in my world that you get in early enough for a nice slow ramp up from scratch. Luck of the draw but I'd say you are most likely to come in to problems or late.

If you are the best in your field then contracting is good at the moment. You can pick and chose the gigs. If you have no contracting experience or skills to sell you are going to be a bit of way down the list.

I understand this is written from a point of view of someone who is highly experienced and capable, but is all contractinig like this? I read in another thread that someone started contracting after spending 2 years after graduation doing perm roles. I understand this kind of start may mean lower rates etc. Or is this kind of scenario impossible at all?

**engineerer** · 11 February 2022, 13:16

Originally posted by TheDude View Post

Something that would not be ripped to shreds in a code review.

If you are unable to judge the quality of your own output then with respect you are not ready to enter the world of contracting.

I thought you were be referring to something I was missing but in this case it is rather clear and obvious that a self-respecting professional will know the difference between bad code and something that can be used as a good example. But on the other hand perhaps it's not so obvious to everyone.

**northernladuk** · 11 February 2022, 13:53

Originally posted by engineerer View Post

I understand this is written from a point of view of someone who is highly experienced and capable, but is all contractinig like this? I read in another thread that someone started contracting after spending 2 years after graduation doing perm roles. I understand this kind of start may mean lower rates etc. Or is this kind of scenario impossible at all?

It means they will have taken a much lower role in keeping with their experience with not much scope to move out of it. If they are canny they can learn on the fly and make it work for the future but in theory you go in to do what they need and that's it. There is no learning on the job. If you do get some then happy days but it's not a way to build a career or experience.

Personally I think taking the first gig you can is a bad idea. You are at the bottom of the ladder and are scrabbling for roles that can easily be offshored. I'd say climb the ladder first. Move perm roles if you have to. Become the best you can be then go sell those skills at a premium. Being a poorly skilled bod scrabbling for roles isn't contacting IMO. It's just being a disguised perm doing as you are told because you know no better.

We've no idea how long that person managed to stay in contract or if they can get them end to end. We have a saying that the second role is hardest to get. You can wait forever to get the first one happy in a paying job. Once the first gig ends you are on your own, no income. The clock is ticking. It can take anything from a week to months to find a gig and if you are lacking skills you could end up on less a year than a perm.

Java dev transition to contracting