3 Months into Contract - Offered Perm Role

**ladymuck** · 4 December 2021, 22:30

There is no way your current contract is outside IR35 unless the perm role being offered is completely different to the one you're doing now. The warning sign was when they mentioned the perm opportunity at interview - I would have questioned how it could possibly have been assessed as outside if they were looking to transition it to perm. Are you working via an umbrella or your own LtdCo? If the latter, make sure you put aside some cash.

Sounds like you were fully anticipating a move to perm, which makes me wonder what you've been doing for the past three months if not researching what they tend to offer by means of a package (that's what the company intranet is there for) so you can be prepared. You need to decide what minimum you can accept and still keep a roof over your head and don't go below that. You should not make any binding decisions in that meeting but sleep on it for a few days and make sure you're really happy with the offer.

I would ask two other things in the meeting: 1. what will happen to your contract if you decide to not take the perm role, and 2. are they are going to reissue the SDS as the role is clearly inside, and has been from the start, and will they cover the tax and NI liability they've burdened you with?

**chris424uk** · 4 December 2021, 22:40

It's outside IR35 confirmed by the agency, client, 3rd party solicitor, etc. I'm confident of that. I'm working as an independent consultant and the role is based on helping setup an IT division that doesn't currently exist. The permanent opportunity was when/if the division is set-up, there will be a need to 'staff it' and then BAU. As a result, there is no current roles which exist in the company that I would move into, so I can't benchmark against existing roles.

This forum is always so toxic. Quick to jump to conclusions, especially if the OP has under 10,000 posts and full of snide remarks. Deleting this account.

**northernladuk** · 4 December 2021, 22:55

Originally posted by chris424uk View Post

It's outside IR35 confirmed by the agency, client, 3rd party solicitor, etc. I'm confident of that. I'm working as an independent consultant and the role is based on helping setup an IT division that doesn't currently exist. The permanent opportunity was when/if the division is set-up, there will be a need to 'staff it' and then BAU. As a result, there is no current roles which exist in the company that I would move into, so I can't benchmark against existing roles.

This forum is always so toxic. Quick to jump to conclusions, especially if the OP has under 10,000 posts and full of snide remarks. Deleting this account.

Bit ironic when you are accusing of someone jumping to conclusions. The forum isn't toxic, it's a bunch of strangers giving up their time to try answer complex questions posed in just a few paragraphs. Some times cold hard facts and someones opinion might upset you but that's internet life for you.

For the record LM is one of the least angry people on the forums so pretty incredible you read toxicity in to her post. It's looks like the perfect answer to me.

It's been a pretty standard response from the time IR35 came in to force that a contract role that moves to perm is difficult to defend as outside. You are doing a perm role and the client confirms that by asking you to fill it which really is the whole point of IR35 so it's a pretty solid conclusion in most instances. The new world of the client confirming the status changes things slightly but still, it isn't unreasonable to assume even if they've ticked the right boxes to say it's outside when all along wanting to fill a perm slot then the status is highly questionable. From what I remember of status determinations it doesn't ask if the role is a standard enduring role filled by perms. If there was I'd think the client would tick that and the status would change.

Also a perfectly reasonable point about researching the perm package. Shouldn't be hard to find out what the standard benefits and going rate for your role is, and as mentioned something worth finding out as soon as possible so you aren't wasting your time when they offer you something you'd never take.

Don't see anything wrong with LM's post at all. If you think that's a toxic response then you really do need to delete your account as this isn't the place for you.

**northernladuk** · 4 December 2021, 23:00

And my thoughts on your post..

I was hoping to get at least 6-12 months out of it before moving to perm and taking the anticipated pay-cut.

Where did that come from? Did they quote those numbers or were you just hoping? My first thought is that is a very long time to be wasting money on a contractor when you can get a perm in. I think you've been a bit ambitious with your hopes. If they indicate a perm role in an interview I'd be expecting 3 months which is around a normal probation period and as soon as they are happy they switch to perm to save money.

Remember budget for headcount is assessed yearly. If they've got budget for a perm they can't wait 12 months as that budget will get taken off them.

So there's outstanding questions around how much they'll offer me but I'm just a bit surprised it happened so soon. I'm worried it's because they can no longer justify me working outside IR35 and can only offer a more BAU perm role going forward.

And you probably correct to worry because that's exactly what is happening. They want you in perm as soon as possible, definitely before next budget round. You've passed probation so why get you in ASAP? Why would they do anything else?

**jayn200** · 5 December 2021, 06:39

I'd probably just tell them you're happy being a contractor and you would love to complete the work you started on as you enjoy the environment, work and think it would be more efficient than getting someone else in to complete it.

Then sit back and see what they try and offer you to take perm role. Probably be better than if you try and show excitement in going perm.

Everyone knows why people work as contractors. It's not a secret. You have a few people who like to play the game and try and pretend like it's not about the money.

And everything is negotiable and you're in a great position to negotiate since you've established you're competent (assuming so since they are offering you a perm job after working with you) you are making more money than they'll offer you and their competitors will offer you more money. All of that puts you in a strong position because it's easy to walk away... And you probably will have to walk away unless you enjoy working for 3-4k a month.

**Lance** · 5 December 2021, 12:09

Originally posted by jayn200 View Post

I'd probably just tell them you're happy being a contractor and you would love to complete the work you started on as you enjoy the environment, work and think it would be more efficient than getting someone else in to complete it.

Then sit back and see what they try and offer you to take perm role. Probably be better than if you try and show excitement in going perm.

Everyone knows why people work as contractors. It's not a secret. You have a few people who like to play the game and try and pretend like it's not about the money.

And everything is negotiable and you're in a great position to negotiate since you've established you're competent (assuming so since they are offering you a perm job after working with you) you are making more money than they'll offer you and their competitors will offer you more money. All of that puts you in a strong position because it's easy to walk away... And you probably will have to walk away unless you enjoy working for 3-4k a month.

I agree with this ^^^^^^

If a client/employer wants a contractor to become perm they have to have more to offer than just money. Job security, pension, sick pay etc. don't mean much to a contractor who has already accepted these risks (unless the contractor is ill).

Shares are usually a good start (not share options. Shares).
A good position in a company with the likelihood of large growth is another thing to tempt a contractor.
And whatever salary they offer should be over £150k IMO if they are serious about the person and not just filling a role.

**northernladuk** · 5 December 2021, 12:57

Originally posted by Lance View Post

And whatever salary they offer should be over £150k IMO if they are serious about the person and not just filling a role.

I think that's way over the top. I can't imagine the perms are getting paid anywhere near that. No one is good enough to be paying probably over twice the going rate. Highly unlikely they'll get that signed off and if they did if word got out one guy is on that much there will be a mutiny.

I think the OP is in for an unexpected surprise here. It's not going to last nearly as long as he was hoping and the rate is going to be much lower than he expects. His surprise at the situation and having to ask what to do indicates to me he's on the backfoot. If he was the top of his game and worth way above market prices he wouldn't be having to ask if you get me.

**Lance** · 5 December 2021, 13:02

Originally posted by northernladuk View Post

I think that's way over the top. I can't imagine the perms are getting paid anywhere near that. No one is good enough to be paying probably over twice the going rate. Highly unlikely they'll get that signed off and if they did if word got out one guy is on that much there will be a mutiny.

which is sort of my point. They really need to want you otherwise why bother?

If I was offered £80k-£90k (on paper what I could get if I was just a permie), I'd have to say no. What benefit would there be for me? What benefit would there be for the company (they could just go to the normal permie market and get someone who'd be more permie-minded)?

**malvolio** · 5 December 2021, 13:26

Originally posted by Lance View Post

which is sort of my point. They really need to want you otherwise why bother?

If I was offered £80k-£90k (on paper what I could get if I was just a permie), I'd have to say no. What benefit would there be for me? What benefit would there be for the company (they could just go to the normal permie market and get someone who'd be more permie-minded)?

Contractors aren't actually worth as much as they think - and some are worth rather less...

Put it this way - a permie is engaged for the long term and is valued on their likely contribution to the company as a whole, contractors are hired to deliver stuff quickly and cheaply. You can afford a high rate for a contractor for a short term gig, or to fill a short term need, but as a permie they will only be worth market rate, which will include all the hidden extras and overheads.

So £150k for a replacement salary is, shall we say, somewhat optimistic. Anyone outside senior management or on commission-related pay will be lucky to be on six figures.

3 Months into Contract - Offered Perm Role