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    #21
    Originally posted by LondonManc View Post
    + IR35 issues.
    Oops.

    Expect moves you closer to MoO.
    Does it buggery. It's about client managing the workload. If they've anything about them they'll be able to gauge the amount of work to be done per week and what they expect from your the £500 or whatever they will be paying. The contract will state 40 hours, 5 days, PWD or whatever means you contractually can't do 20 and charge for 40 for a start. There aren't many contractors that don't have those terms in.

    If ladymuck had any sense (and she does give that impression) then it will be deliverable based. As a client, if I offer out to tender a deliverable to be completed in a timeframe at a price, then if someone delivers that, I'm happy. If they have a complex code generator that they can leverage that they've built themselves and can do 40 hours of work in 20, then fair play to them. That's none of my business, I just want my deliverable to an acceptable standard. Are you brave enough to get your wife to wash the dishes *and* tell her how to do it?
    I'm absolutely certain LM is a different example here but I am certainly not bought in to every comment after where it's permie mentality. It's turned in to a bit of a pissing competition now but will go on a little bit longer. I think we could probably pick a raft of people on here that are quite capable of working like this but go out in to the world with your average contractor on an average client and that number goes down to the less than the number of rounds I've bought this year.

    It doesn't really matter what we think we can do or what mentality we have. I totally get the theory, I really do. The reality is completely different. You survey a good chunk of clients and ask if they'd be happy paying £500 a day when the contractor can do it in half the time and are doing the same to another client and I'll bet all but a couple (and even then down to certain roles) will not entertain it. If they do they are either mismanaging the deliverables and the contractor pulling their pants down or it really is a true deliverable and time won't matter. The later will be a very small percentage of clients.

    Not saying it can't happen but I'll bet the balance of taking the piss vs a above board delivery will be heavily weighted on one side.

    The fact that the OP is having to ask this and one of his gigs in via an umbrella there for (assumed) a disguised permie role not ring anyone's alarm bells at all? Really?
    Last edited by northernladuk; 7 April 2020, 09:07.
    'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

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      #22
      Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
      Does it buggery. It's about client managing the workload. If they've anything about them they'll be able to gauge the amount of work to be done per week and what they expect from your the £500 or whatever they will be paying. The contract will state 40 hours, 5 days, PWD or whatever means you contractually can't do 20 and charge for 40 for a start. There aren't many contractors that don't have those terms in.
      It's introducing a whole variety of constraints and symptomatic of a client managing a person rather than a consultant.

      Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
      I'm absolutely certain LM is a different example here but I am certainly not bought in to every comment after where it's permie mentality. It's turned in to a bit of a pissing competition now but will go on a little bit longer. I think we could probably pick a raft of people on here that are quite capable of working like this but go out in to the world with your average contractor on an average client and that number goes down to the less than the number of rounds I've bought this year.

      It doesn't really matter what we think we can do or what mentality we have. I totally get the theory, I really do. The reality is completely different. You survey a good chunk of clients and ask if they'd be happy paying £500 a day when the contractor can do it in half the time and are doing the same to another client and I'll bet all but a couple (and even then down to certain roles) will not entertain it. If they do they are either mismanaging the deliverables and the contractor pulling their pants down or it really is a true deliverable and time won't matter. The later will be a very small percentage of clients.

      Not saying it can't happen but I'll bet the balance of taking the piss vs a above board delivery will be heavily weighted on one side.

      The fact that the OP is having to ask this and one of his gigs in via an umbrella there for (assumed) a disguised permie role not ring anyone's alarm bells at all? Really?
      Sounds like you're conflating large company contingent worker contractors with freelance contractors. The gig economy isn't a one-size fits all industry, even beyond the Uber et al. crew.
      The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he didn't exist

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        #23
        Originally posted by LondonManc View Post
        It's introducing a whole variety of constraints and symptomatic of a client managing a person rather than a consultant.
        I see what you are saying but no. I'm talking about correctly sizing work and managing deliverables. If a client expects to take on a highly skilled resource they should be able to work out roughly the amount of work to do. There will be winners and losers in this but I really don't think clients get it wrong by 50% to allow the contractor to fleece them. What kind of business would last long if the clients find the supplier is doing it in half the time. If the contractor is the one sizing the work and they are giving the client a deliverable that is 40 hours knowing full well he can do it in 20 it's still bordering on taking the piss no?

        Sounds like you're conflating large company contingent worker contractors with freelance contractors. The gig economy isn't a one-size fits all industry, even beyond the Uber et al. crew.
        Yep. Absolutely this... but the large company contingent works make up a vast number of us and we've had threads from people in this situation trying to pull the wool over the clients eyes before.

        All arguments are absolutely valid and it's an interesting discussion. I'd still bet my house if we dug deeper in to the practices of most of these questions we get there would be more fleecing than genuine situations...

        And I guess so ends my input. I think we all agree really, I'm just devils advocate/cup half full on this one.
        'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

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          #24
          Double charging your time to 2 companies is no more ripping them off, than spending half your life spouting on this forum....

          See You Next Tuesday

          Comment


            #25
            Originally posted by Lance View Post
            Double charging your time to 2 companies is no more ripping them off, than spending half your life spouting on this forum....

            I... Erm... Well.....But....

            'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

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              #26
              Originally posted by Samm View Post
              Yes they are aware of it - they are pieces of work that need completed and I am confident that I can deliver to each client. So why shouldn't I take on all 3.
              Seems you've answered your own question.

              Crack on. I would too.

              Comment


                #27
                Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
                Did the clients know and were OK with it or did you just fudge it based on deliverables? We're they expecting 40 hours from you so ended up billing 100 hours a week?

                I can see how it works nicely if you've got three clients that are aware and flexible and don't expect a 40 hour billing. Creaming it from 2.5 clients that want an FTE each just because they are remote due to the situation is taking the piss surely?
                This guy's been out of contracting too long. Give him a job someone. Something that doesn't require writing the written word...

                'Creaming'? Really? You're a bloody business!

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                  #28
                  Some thoughts from a contractual and practical perspective. Ignoring tax and IR35...

                  I'm in the SOW deliverable camp on this one, either fixed price, or number of days purchased based on indicative estimate. This is what a consultancy would be doing.
                  I'd also want clauses to protect my own position if the client delays or fails to make stuff available.

                  Why would I sign up a contract thats based on hours/days worked per week based on full time work? Do the contracts also have a fixed end date or are you selling a block of days? A contract should reflect what you're actually going to be doing, and what protections are in place, how it is terminated etc. This is what you should be paying close attention to. Client can say one thing today, but they'll say another when they don't get what they want, and when they expect it. Don't underestimate this.

                  I see that the clients are aware of each other in this case, but there are risks to delivery if something goes wrong. Who owns these risks?

                  Lets say at the moment the timescales work, and you're able to deliver everything comfortably so long as nothing changes.
                  My experience is that things hardly ever go to plan, usually due to things outside of my control. What happens if a time critical or intensive block of work you were meant to be doing for client 1 now overlaps with a similar block of work for client 2 (the mid-week clients)? How do you resolve it? Who takes priority and who takes a delay? What about the contract end dates, can they be moved? and why should the client accept? do they end up paying extra?

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                    #29
                    Do you not think a bathroom fitter has exactly those same questions every day of his working life.

                    It is a quality problem to have and if you're up snuff, you'll just Make it work.

                    One either knows ones business, or one does not. If not, play it safe and take just the one bathroom. After which, you look for another one...

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                      #30
                      I've done it before and I'm currently doing 2 contracts. Just be careful with time, if you start to get problems with the work on one it will start to eat into the time on the others, and then the problems start to mount up
                      Brexit is having a wee in the middle of the room at a house party because nobody is talking to you, and then complaining about the smell.

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