Should you do long hours just because the company's employees do long hours?

[ContractorScum]

Hi,

In the current project the client is Spanish, the team I work with usually start at 9am and work until 7.30pm. Lunch is usually at 2-3pm.

You want to get burnt out? cos this is how you get burnt out.

I would question how anyone is being productive doing such long hours.

[ladymuck]

I do the hours needed to get the job done. On my current gig I tend to start about 0800 and clock off 1600-1630. Contract says 40 hours

However, I do deliver a heck of a lot in that time and, rather than any clock watchers bitching at me, I get told by management how awesome I am!

It does help that I WFH 90% of the time and I have sensible managers who care about output rather than presenteeism.

When I do venture to that there Canary Wharf, I turn up about 0730 and leave about 1600, cos I don't want to spend my commute up someone's armpit.

That said, if I'm needed later or there's something urgent going on, I'll do more hours. I'm not precious.

Friends of mine, in IB, do the stupid hours because the permies and management huff if you're not at your desk for 10 hours a day and they don't have the balls to do otherwise. They don't like to allow much homeworking I notice. I would refuse to do that, so strangely have never worked in IB...

[billybiro]

Contract first, but as a rule I work the hours I need to deliver a professional day and value to my client, I control my hours but ensure I’m around when the client needs me. If client is happy with the quality and quantity of work being delivered the hours shouldn’t matter.

Think ‘professional working day’. If you finish early because nothing more can be achieved then leave. If you leave bang on time every day, leaving someone else to pick the pieces that’s not good.

Have some common sense FFS.
They at least expect common sense and professionalism.

The problem here is that it very much sounds like this is a company that judges "value" not by the actual value of the work delivered, but by the hours put in by a given worker (be they a permie or a contractor). In such environments, should you wish to do less hours than the (frankly ridiculous) 9am to 7:30pm that the permies do, it's almost impossible to politely educate or convince the client that you're performing sufficient hours to deliver against the project/contract as that's not what they value.

It sounds like they simply want a bum on a seat and have the mindset of "more hours = more work = good", when it's very well known that a person's level of productivity decreases sharply when overworking such as the permies do in this place.

So, to answer your question, you should do the hours you want.

Do you want to get the job done, deliver against the project/contract whilst retaining your sanity but potentially annoying the client with your "non-conformism"? If so, do the "normal" hours that you'd do for a professional working day.

Do you want to brown nose the client and show that you're "just like them" working all the hours god sends, providing no further value despite working longer hours and possible get burnt out at the same time but leaving a very happy client (remember, they value hours delivered not value delivered)? Then work the same as the permies.

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

The problem here is that it very much sounds like this is a company that judges "value" not by the actual value of the work delivered, but by the hours put in by a given worker (be they a permie or a contractor). In such environments, should you wish to do less hours than the (frankly ridiculous) 9am to 7:30pm that the permies do, it's almost impossible to politely educate or convince the client that you're performing sufficient hours to deliver against the project/contract as that's not what they value.

It sounds like they simply want a bum on a seat and have the mindset of "more hours = more work = good", when it's very well known that a person's level of productivity decreases sharply when overworking such as the permies do in this place.

You're right of course, but the simple solution to this is: don't work for companies that value time over deliverables. You'll probably find these kinds of clients are also more likely to try and exert direction and control over you as well so not good from an IR35 standpoint either.

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

I only contract on hourly rate basis now (I find most challenge it, at first, but when I walk away not willing to accept the day rate only the majority accept it) Now it becomes an easier discussion - do you want me to spend 2 more hours (which I will charge you) at the job today just because it makes Annoying Andy and Peeved Pamela happier??? If so I'm happy to provide the service you are requiring - if not then I'm out of here and I'll see you tomorrow

This seems a bit of a backwards approach to me. Charging by the hour puts *more* emphasis on valuing time over deliverables, not less.

I've gone in the other direction - wherever possible I charge a *weekly* rate, not a daily rate. It's a good compromise between charging for your time and value-based pricing/fixed price agreements (difficult if its a longer term, agile development project) but de-emphasises clock-watching and the number of hours per day delivered. If you can deliver value-based pricing for a project, even better - its good for IR35 as it significantly increases your financial risk and decreases the risk of direction and control whilst potentially allowing you to charge a much higher day rate (although this isn't visible to the client).

Not all clients are comfortable with this, but they tend to accept it when you remind them that if they aren't happy with the amount of value you are delivering they can get rid of you on short notice. I've only ever had one complaint from a client about the amount of perceived value delivered in this way (this was on a short, 4 week gig and the client had very unrealistic expectations - I terminated the contract myself).

[FK1]

Contract first, but as a rule I work the hours I need to deliver a professional day and value to my client, I control my hours but ensure I’m around when the client needs me. If client is happy with the quality and quantity of work being delivered the hours shouldn’t matter.

I still remember a manager in a well-known Gold Microsoft Partner who terminated my contract just because of I used to arrive 10 am not 9 am. There were nothing rational to justify that decision just intolerance and that was done in the middle of delivery. Workplace discipline POV came first.

Fortunately it was just once but a good example of unexpected.

[northernladuk]

I still remember a manager in a well-known Gold Microsoft Partner who terminated my contract just because of I used to arrive 10 am not 9 am. There were nothing rational to justify that decision just intolerance and that was done in the middle of delivery. Workplace discipline POV came first.

Fortunately it was just once but a good example of unexpected.

Did he try resolve this with you? Surely he didn't just bin you without speaking to you about it? Bearing in mind we've another person on the forums as we speak who's been canned over times and I've seen plenty pulled up about it I think it would be wrong to assume you can waltz on when you want and be surprised when the client isn't happy. Flexibility isn't always a given.

[LondonManc]

I've worked anything from bang on hours to 80 hours in a week, depending upon the situation. As a contractor, there are probably a couple of weeks each contract where you go the extra mile and, thinking of it as your marketing spend, it can so easily get you your next extension and subsequent business elsewhere (been there, done that). Professional working day is the key, as others have said.

[ladymuck]

Did he try resolve this with you? Surely he didn't just bin you without speaking to you about it? Bearing in mind we've another person on the forums as we speak who's been canned over times and I've seen plenty pulled up about it I think it would be wrong to assume you can waltz on when you want and be surprised when the client isn't happy. Flexibility isn't always a given.

Flexibility is a tricky one. It can be down to individual managers' preferences (or arseholery) rather than a company policy in many cases. It's always difficult if your circumstances change and all you need is a bit of a tweak to make things easier. The insecure managers who don't trust their workforce can't see that a bit of wiggle room works both ways and gives them a better outcome overall. They just assume you're taking the mickey and so you get the boot.

[Andy2]

How do you deal with a bitchy contractor colleague who work from 10 to 6 but start bitching about you to your manager if you work from 8 to 4. As it happens many times system problems crop up in the afternoon and when you leave it does not reflect well on you.