Contract v fixed term

[northernladuk]

OK, so you need to confirm with client that there is no danger of the agent pursuing you for loss of earnings (in terms of a handcuff rule).

Sounds like they want to take you on as a consultancy rather than a person - this allows you to sub-contract parts of it but there may well be other aspects that you need to consider. Personally I'd engage a contract lawyer because this is a totally different beast. If I'm signing up for something potentially lucrative and committing to it for four years, I'd want to make sure that it's definitely lucrative. Figure out your all in rate - you'll be inside IR35, so up your rate 30% and then factor in expenses, plus spreading the cost of the lawyer over 3 years (£10 per day ish should cover it).

There are a few people who will definitely be able to give you good advice on here - GillsMan is one that springs to mind.

I don't think any of this is an issue. This is a simple case that the OP has done 2 years at a Govt agency and he is done. They don't allow extensions past 2 years so they are going to have to let him go as a contractor. There is no handcuff issues as he cannot be there past 2 years so the agency cannot prove loss.

He's simply being moved from a contractor to an employee. The standard way of getting in to PS is the 2 year FTC so all they are doing is changing the role from a contingent one to a permie one. No Pseudo about it. He's becoming an employee like everyone else that joins the civil service.

Because of that I doubt they will accept the rate he is contracting at or an uplift. The role will come with a rate which will be pretty derisory compared to the private sector.

Simple as that really. IMO after 2 years at the client the OP should know this and not be thrashing around like he is.

[MrMarkyMark]

I don't think any of this is an issue. This is a simple case that the OP has done 2 years at a Govt agency and he is done. They don't allow extensions past 2 years so they are going to have to let him go as a contractor. There is no handcuff issues as he cannot be there past 2 years so the agency cannot prove loss.

He's simply being moved from a contractor to an employee. The standard way of getting in to PS is the 2 year FTC so all they are doing is changing the role from a contingent one to a permie one. No Pseudo about it. He's becoming an employee like everyone else that joins the civil service.

Because of that I doubt they will accept the rate he is contracting at or an uplift. The role will come with a rate which will be pretty derisory compared to the private sector.

Simple as that really. IMO after 2 years at the client the OP should know this and not be thrashing around like he is.

Errrrrm....

I have been contracting for a couple of years now on a decent day rate; the client I am working for wants me until 2020; and wants me on a fixed term contract BUT on a higher rate.

He wants me to advise him on how much increase I would be looking for.

[LondonManc]

I don't think any of this is an issue. This is a simple case that the OP has done 2 years at a Govt agency and he is done. They don't allow extensions past 2 years so they are going to have to let him go as a contractor. There is no handcuff issues as he cannot be there past 2 years so the agency cannot prove loss.

He's simply being moved from a contractor to an employee. The standard way of getting in to PS is the 2 year FTC so all they are doing is changing the role from a contingent one to a permie one. No Pseudo about it. He's becoming an employee like everyone else that joins the civil service.

Because of that I doubt they will accept the rate he is contracting at or an uplift. The role will come with a rate which will be pretty derisory compared to the private sector.

Simple as that really. IMO after 2 years at the client the OP should know this and not be thrashing around like he is.

If you'd read earlier, properly, as is generally not your wont, you'd have noted that he's been offered a chance of a B2B contract.

[northernladuk]

I did read earlier and I did note the comment highlighted. I stated what the situation he is in. What ever he thinks or the agency wants is secondary here. For a start to engage with his limited he should be going through GCloud but they've removed all the options to get bums on seats via it so that's not going to work so he's going to have to come in through a contingent labour route which still has the 2 years attached to it. He and his manager might think they want to but the reality is a completely different thing... If the adhere to a ridiculous process of binning resources after 2 years do you think they are going to bypass all their other processes?

And a govt agency offering over the odds for a position? When he's got it in writing then I'll believe him.

Until he's got this in writing he's got nothing, particularly with a Govt position.

[LondonManc]

I did read earlier and I did not that comment. I stated what the situation he is in. What ever he thinks or the agency wants is secondary here. For a start to engage with his limited he should be going through GCloud but they've removed all the options to get bums on seats via it so that's not going to work so he's going to have to come in through a contingent labour route which still has the 2 years attached to it. He and his manager might think they want to but the reality is a completely different thing...

And a govt agency offering over the odds for a position? When he's got it in writing then I'll believe him.

Until he's got this in writing he's got nothing, particularly with a Govt position.

I think both he and the person offering him the long term work are confused about what's actually on offer.

[northernladuk]

I think both he and the person offering him the long term work are confused about what's actually on offer.

and what is actually realistic and possible.

[emranio]

OK, so you need to confirm with client that there is no danger of the agent pursuing you for loss of earnings (in terms of a handcuff rule).

Sounds like they want to take you on as a consultancy rather than a person - this allows you to sub-contract parts of it but there may well be other aspects that you need to consider. Personally I'd engage a contract lawyer because this is a totally different beast. If I'm signing up for something potentially lucrative and committing to it for four years, I'd want to make sure that it's definitely lucrative. Figure out your all in rate - you'll be inside IR35, so up your rate 30% and then factor in expenses, plus spreading the cost of the lawyer over 3 years (£10 per day ish should cover it).

There are a few people who will definitely be able to give you good advice on here - GillsMan is one that springs to mind.

Great thanks; please ignore my complete ignorance as i have been relatively sheltered as a contractor. My first contracting appointment (this one) has lasted two years. If i engaged as a consultant directly with the client and not through an agency and a PSC why would i be inside IR 35? surely i'd be outside IR35 no matter how long the relationship and particularly if i work for other clients.

KR

[MrMarkyMark]

Great thanks; please ignore my complete ignorance as i have been relatively sheltered as a contractor. My first contracting appointment (this one) has lasted two years. If i engaged as a consultant directly with the client and not through an agency and a PSC why would i be inside IR 35? surely i'd be outside IR35 no matter how long the relationship and particularly if i work for other clients.

KR

I suggest you read the proposed rules.
As they stand you would be inside, the details you have stated make no difference to that.

Whether the rules actually come into force is another question.

[northernladuk]

Great thanks; please ignore my complete ignorance as i have been relatively sheltered as a contractor. My first contracting appointment (this one) has lasted two years. If i engaged as a consultant directly with the client and not through an agency and a PSC why would i be inside IR 35? surely i'd be outside IR35 no matter how long the relationship and particularly if i work for other clients.

KR

IT contractor guide to 'going direct' :: Contractor UK

You need to read up on IR35. Plenty of links on the right and on google.

IR35 is on a contract by contract basis. Having other clients might help your defence and was part of the now defunct questionnaire but ultimately its' down to the contract. One could be inside, one can be outside.

You really need to go look at the situation at your client before getting too confused about what could and what couldn't be. Govt agencies have very strict rules on engagement so IMO you need to spend more time finding out what is possible and when you are sure then worrying about the mechanics of it all.

Even if you are engaged direct through the company you will still fall foul of the new legislation coming in April. You can read all about it here.

http://forums.contractoruk.com/futur...-launched.html

[malvolio]

Great thanks; please ignore my complete ignorance as i have been relatively sheltered as a contractor. My first contracting appointment (this one) has lasted two years. If i engaged as a consultant directly with the client and not through an agency and a PSC why would i be inside IR 35? surely i'd be outside IR35 no matter how long the relationship and particularly if i work for other clients.

KR

No, it's not that clear cut. It would all depend on exactly what the working arrangements are, since Direction and Control remain the key determinant, plus lesser considerations such as mutuality, substitution and being "part and parcel" of your client's business.

If you don't have your own company and aren't through an umbrella than I assume you work as a sole trader, so yes, IR35 probably isn't a consideration. However the changes next year will mean you get paid net of PAYE and NICs if your client is even vaguely linked to the public sector and it won't be all that long before that hits the private sector. Even if you are clear now, you need to understand what's going on.

Multiple clients is no defence either: IR35 is on a contract by contract basis.