So these are the 2 Public sector (soon to be private sector) IR35 questions?

[jaffab]

Hi all,

I do a fair amount of public sector contract work, with a 50/50 split between contracting and true freelance project (not through agency) work.

I have been watching the headlines (scare headlines) of the up coming changes to the public (soon to be rolled out to the private sector) changes which are planned to come out in April.

Yesterday, Contractor Weekly listed the two new(?!?) IR35 questions which gets rid of all the previous jumping through hoops, SDC, substitution, etc etc, But I cannot imagine ANY contractor who could slip out of these two questions.

Having established that a contract is within the scope of the rules then the engager simply has to answer two questions to decide if IR35 applies:
1.Is the worker required to do the work themselves?
2.Does the engager decide or have the right to decide how the work should be done?

I cannot see any way that anybody would take on a contractor and not give up right (2), even if its just a voice of approval of suggestions put forward by the contractor. And unless some structure is in place where a contractor is always sub-contracting the work, (1) will always apply.

This government is really out to kill small business. I guess I will just have to move to the private sector in April, and then when the government rolls it out to the private sector 10-12 months later, retire (or move to a different county).

Thoughts?

[missinggreenfields]

It depends on the details of "how the work is done".

If the client says "we need a piece of code to do XYZ" does that count? If the client says "we need a new java class to do XYZ" does that count? If the client says "we need you to fix XYZ" does that count?

I don't think I've ever had a client who has told me how my work should be done, beyond "professionally".

[jaffab]

I cant imagine anybody would just say "we need an xxxxx". As discussed on other posts on this forum, they may say....

"we need an xxxxx" - so maybe that overcomes clause (2)
but what about...
"we need an xxxxx, and we need it to be on a SQL Server Database" - how close is this?
or
"we need an xxxxx, and we need it to be on a SQL Server Database using our existing style sheet for look and feel" - how close is this?
or
"we need an xxxxx, and we need it to be on a SQL Server Database, and we need to review and approve a prototype to make sure it works for us" - how close is this?
or
"we need an xxxxx, and we need it to be on a SQL Server Database and the code should fit with our existing coding standards so we can maintain it afterwards" - how close is this?
and finally
"we need an xxxxx, and we need it to be on a SQL Server Database, and when you are done with that, we will have another project that needs looking at, and then another" - how close is this?

[northernladuk]

Hi all,

I do a fair amount of public sector contract work, with a 50/50 split between contracting and true freelance project (not through agency) work.

I have been watching the headlines (scare headlines) of the up coming changes to the public (soon to be rolled out to the private sector) changes which are planned to come out in April.

But have you done the research by reading the consultation document and actually understood the background behind the headlines?

Yesterday, Contractor Weekly listed the two new(?!?) IR35 questions which gets rid of all the previous jumping through hoops, SDC, substitution, etc etc, But I cannot imagine ANY contractor who could slip out of these two questions.

Having established that a contract is within the scope of the rules then the engager simply has to answer two questions to decide if IR35 applies:
1.Is the worker required to do the work themselves?
2.Does the engager decide or have the right to decide how the work should be done?

I cannot see any way that anybody would take on a contractor and not give up right (2), even if its just a voice of approval of suggestions put forward by the contractor. And unless some structure is in place where a contractor is always sub-contracting the work, (1) will always apply.

This government is really out to kill small business. I guess I will just have to move to the private sector in April, and then when the government rolls it out to the private sector 10-12 months later, retire (or move to a different county).

Thoughts?

Correct.

There is already a number of very long threads in the 'Future of Contracting' area that discuss this in great detail. I'd suggest you read them rather than start the whole debate off again.

[jaffab]

Ahh - I missed there was already a discussion underway. Sorry about that.

Admins, please feel free to DELETE THIS THREAD

[northernladuk]

Ahh - I missed there was already a discussion underway. Sorry about that.

Admins, please feel free to DELETE THIS THREAD

No problems. Unfortunately this is going to happen a lot in the next 6 months as those head in the sand BOS contractors slowly become aware. Jan to Apr is going to be a nightmare on here as the deadline gets closer.

[LondonManc]

Hi all,

I do a fair amount of public sector contract work, with a 50/50 split between contracting and true freelance project (not through agency) work.

I have been watching the headlines (scare headlines) of the up coming changes to the public (soon to be rolled out to the private sector) changes which are planned to come out in April.

Yesterday, Contractor Weekly listed the two new(?!?) IR35 questions which gets rid of all the previous jumping through hoops, SDC, substitution, etc etc, But I cannot imagine ANY contractor who could slip out of these two questions.

Having established that a contract is within the scope of the rules then the engager simply has to answer two questions to decide if IR35 applies:
1.Is the worker required to do the work themselves?
2.Does the engager decide or have the right to decide how the work should be done?

I cannot see any way that anybody would take on a contractor and not give up right (2), even if its just a voice of approval of suggestions put forward by the contractor. And unless some structure is in place where a contractor is always sub-contracting the work, (1) will always apply.

This government is really out to kill small business. I guess I will just have to move to the private sector in April, and then when the government rolls it out to the private sector 10-12 months later, retire (or move to a different county).

Thoughts?

1 is just a rewording of the right of substitution. It will genuinely apply to all BoS positions and discriminates between very small consultancies and medium to large consultancies; as such it should be classed as unfair.

2 is nebulous and will very much depend upon the contract. If a specialist is brought in, for whom there is no valid peer in the hiring organisation, who is there to tell them how to deliver something? Say you're after in memory business intelligence and simply have a basic data warehouse and people to only support that. Who within the organisation could tell the contractor how to deliver their project?

[missinggreenfields]

1 is just a rewording of the right of substitution. It will genuinely apply to all BoS positions and discriminates between very small consultancies and medium to large consultancies; as such it should be classed as unfair.

2 is nebulous and will very much depend upon the contract. If a specialist is brought in, for whom there is no valid peer in the hiring organisation, who is there to tell them how to deliver something? Say you're after in memory business intelligence and simply have a basic data warehouse and people to only support that. Who within the organisation could tell the contractor how to deliver their project?

The important questions aren't these two - it's the 60-odd questions that HMRC are going to put into the online tool to be able to assess with certainty the working practices and reality of the situation.

If they could do that, then they would never have lost a tribunal case - I'm baffled as to how they think that a system that they produce is going to be able to assess the situation correctly, when their experts cannot do the same. But since there have been changes proposed about who has to pay the tribunal fees and legal fees, then they care even less than they might have done before.

[DaveB]

Hi all,

I do a fair amount of public sector contract work, with a 50/50 split between contracting and true freelance project (not through agency) work.

I have been watching the headlines (scare headlines) of the up coming changes to the public (soon to be rolled out to the private sector) changes which are planned to come out in April.

Yesterday, Contractor Weekly listed the two new(?!?) IR35 questions which gets rid of all the previous jumping through hoops, SDC, substitution, etc etc, But I cannot imagine ANY contractor who could slip out of these two questions.

Having established that a contract is within the scope of the rules then the engager simply has to answer two questions to decide if IR35 applies:
1.Is the worker required to do the work themselves?
2.Does the engager decide or have the right to decide how the work should be done?

I cannot see any way that anybody would take on a contractor and not give up right (2), even if its just a voice of approval of suggestions put forward by the contractor. And unless some structure is in place where a contractor is always sub-contracting the work, (1) will always apply.

This government is really out to kill small business. I guess I will just have to move to the private sector in April, and then when the government rolls it out to the private sector 10-12 months later, retire (or move to a different county).

Thoughts?

Depends on the work being done. If you are a bum on seat coder developing under Client Co. coding standards etc then yes, it will be difficult to dodge question 2. If you are more consultancy focused, then a lot of work involves gap analysis and remediation recommendations or tasks such as "review this and tell us what the issues are." or words to that effect.

[GB9]

1 is just a rewording of the right of substitution. It will genuinely apply to all BoS positions and discriminates between very small consultancies and medium to large consultancies; as such it should be classed as unfair.

2 is nebulous and will very much depend upon the contract. If a specialist is brought in, for whom there is no valid peer in the hiring organisation, who is there to tell them how to deliver something? Say you're after in memory business intelligence and simply have a basic data warehouse and people to only support that. Who within the organisation could tell the contractor how to deliver their project?

Point 2 is exactly my situation. I the last few roles I have been brought in to fill a skill set the organisation didn't have. There was no one else on site who had a clue how to do the work or who could even have reviewed what I did, never mind tell me how I should do it.