State of the Market

[dsc]

[...]

The UK is high tax low pay for highly skilled people.

If you really believe this, you should look at Scandi countries, especially DK.

[FIERCE TANK BATTLE]

See, you're right! You're smarter than me, so why not get more than one gig under your belt?



Nothing you said is spoken from experience, I'm telling you how it is as a contractor with 3 clients currently. Even being "scared" they will find out is pure permie mentality.

Interesting, they pay you to sit there versus what you deliver? I mean if you're a permietractor that's cool, but don't assume a monopoly on how us outside contractors operate.

I mean, sure it is. Look on jobserve at contracts. Notice how ALL of them have a daily rate? When you sign your contract, it says this is based on one day of work, often it'll specify the number of hours. If you don't want to do what you signed in your contract, then that's a risk you take, it's not a permie mentality because you're deliberately neglecting your contracts. Fixed deliverable IT contracts don't really exist for contractors, because if you're doing fixed deliverable work, you're not a contractor. At least, not in the sense that is commonly used.

The concern about being found out is that you'll lose your contract and if you're working an SC role for a large government organisation, there may be more penalties than simply being blacklisted, which is bad enough in itself. And it's a ticking timebomb when both say important meeting at the same time and crunch time to deliver before year end when you're suddenly swamped with work, especially if it requires liasing with others so you can't do it outside of the company's working hours. Can only imagine what happens when you get sued for the company missing deadlines due to you simply doing half of the work you were billing for (fraud).

[jamesbrown]

If you don't want to do what you signed in your contract, then that's a risk you take, it's not a permie mentality because you're deliberately neglecting your contracts. Fixed deliverable IT contracts don't really exist for contractors, because if you're doing fixed deliverable work, you're not a contractor. At least, not in the sense that is commonly used.

You're absolutely right on the first point, but we don't all work in IT and some of us are doing FFP work for multiple clients, which is one of two legitimate ways to do multiple contracts concurrently, the other being T&M work and not being a lying scumbag (but then you're either doing it part time for each one or working very long hours, both of which are fine). TGB talks a good game, but he's too afraid to tell his clients what he's doing, which is all you need to know about how he thinks his client's see him (as a good little employee). He can't secure high rates by developing an exceptional skillset - the rates he's on point to an ordinary/common skillset - so he chooses to cheat clients instead.

(Cue some displacement activity about "slave owner" mentality...)

[northernladuk]

I mean, sure it is. Look on jobserve at contracts. Notice how ALL of them have a daily rate? When you sign your contract, it says this is based on one day of work, often it'll specify the number of hours. If you don't want to do what you signed in your contract, then that's a risk you take, it's not a permie mentality because you're deliberately neglecting your contracts. Fixed deliverable IT contracts don't really exist for contractors, because if you're doing fixed deliverable work, you're not a contractor. At least, not in the sense that is commonly used..

No point arguing it with TGB. Nearly everyone has conceded the point that multiple contracts CAN work in certain situations. A pretty balanced approach. Problem is TGB can't apply the same balance to his comments. Every one is multiple contracts or you are a failure. Period. In his experience it can be done. Fair enough, and am sure there are other situations it can. In my experience, and many other roles around me on large busy programmes it simply can't. It's situational and he doesn't get that so no point arguing.

[TheGreenBastard]

I mean, sure it is. Look on jobserve at contracts. Notice how ALL of them have a daily rate? When you sign your contract, it says this is based on one day of work, often it'll specify the number of hours. If you don't want to do what you signed in your contract, then that's a risk you take, it's not a permie mentality because you're deliberately neglecting your contracts. Fixed deliverable IT contracts don't really exist for contractors, because if you're doing fixed deliverable work, you're not a contractor. At least, not in the sense that is commonly used.

The concern about being found out is that you'll lose your contract and if you're working an SC role for a large government organisation, there may be more penalties than simply being blacklisted, which is bad enough in itself. And it's a ticking timebomb when both say important meeting at the same time and crunch time to deliver before year end when you're suddenly swamped with work, especially if it requires liasing with others so you can't do it outside of the company's working hours. Can only imagine what happens when you get sued for the company missing deadlines due to you simply doing half of the work you were billing for (fraud).

Depends entirely on all contracts; SC included and what terms are secured. There are thousands of people with multiple clients, some on very spurious / restrictive terms and a distinct lack of legal record of people being sued for "fraud".

You're absolutely right on the first point, but we don't all work in IT and some of us are doing FFP work for multiple clients, which is one of two legitimate ways to do multiple contracts concurrently, the other being T&M work and not being a lying scumbag (but then you're either doing it part time for each one or working very long hours, both of which are fine). TGB talks a good game, but he's too afraid to tell his clients what he's doing, which is all you need to know about how he thinks his client's see him (as a good little employee). He can't secure high rates by developing an exceptional skillset - the rates he's on point to an ordinary/common skillset - so he chooses to cheat clients instead.

(Cue some displacement activity about "slave owner" mentality...)

The projection is cute, the attempt to undermine without any quantifiable evidence of any of the claims. I've never not hit a deadline or delivery, never had a contract cut short, and each individual contract of 3 pays almost double what northernladuk continually brags about. I can live with that. "Too afraid", I mean I genuinely think you're unhinged to consider yourself a business and talk in such terms.

No point arguing it with TGB. Nearly everyone has conceded the point that multiple contracts CAN work in certain situations. A pretty balanced approach. Problem is TGB can't apply the same balance to his comments. Every one is multiple contracts or you are a failure. Period. In his experience it can be done. Fair enough, and am sure there are other situations it can. In my experience, and many other roles around me on large busy programmes it simply can't. It's situational and he doesn't get that so no point arguing.

It's not an argument, but you've shown your hand saying it is, I didn't come here to argue - you just don't like what I present. I was giving an anecdote from a lived experience, versus someone opinionating from conjecture. Might want to look up previous discussions, never once claimed it wasn't situational, nor do I think non-multigiggers are "a failure".

[jamesbrown]

unhinged

Chuckle, from the fruitloop that can barely string a sentence together without some reference to slaves.

[DrewG]

I've decided that if I don't get a contract by the end of November I'm going to go for a perm role instead. Been contracting since around 2014.

Don't go perm, just get another contract mate.

[northernladuk]

Don't go perm, just get another contract mate.

Did you not read his sentence?

[reddog]

The minimum wage in the UK has tripled since year 2000 but skilled pay hasn't even doubled.

A skilled worker on £50K only takes home just 2x what someone on minimum wage does. And the MW worker will get paid for any overtime, closing the gap even more.

A permie on £120K only makes 4x minimum wage after tax. Inside IR35 contractors billing £120K fare even worse, taking home just 3.5 time minimum wage.

The UK is high tax low pay for highly skilled people.

Wow, that's an amazing and depressing stat.

I haven't looked into it, you are probably right.

The minimum wage has gone up quite a bit, especially in recent times.

[DrewG]

Did you not read his sentence?

jobserve.com

He just needs to filter on 'contract'