State of the Market

[Paralytic]

Just finished a contract at Lloydes where some of the mobile teams were experimenting in not having a PM or scrum master and the team devs/QA’s/SIT//NFT/UAT just decided between themselves what to work on, I needed them to deliver something by a date so raised a dependency with them, they accepted it, out it in a future sprint I was happy about, sprint stared I double checked it was in dev, it was moved into 3 sprints time as they decided to work on something more fun

I'm not saying there's no role for a PM in companies that do agile but still want longer term planning, but a Scrum Master is not just an PM who uses some agile words, as many people think/practice.

I know that Lloyds mapped many of their PMs to Scrum Masters roles as part of their restructuring/transformation, and I've heard about some of the results of that...

In your example, who did you raise the dependency with? The Product Onwner should have been ensuring that dependency was in an appropriate sprint. Or maybe (s)he did, and it just wasn't as important as you thought it was

Or, knowing Lloyds, one of the devs was acting as the PO

[simes]

You do know that PM and Scrum Master are two completely different roles, with minimal responsibility overlap, yes?

Really?

For my part, I think they are the same role. Which is to say, a PM who is qualified in an Agile theme vs a PM who is qualified in a Waterfall theme.

A Scrum Master vs a PRINCE II chap. Still a PM.

[Paralytic]

Really?

For my part, I think they are the same role. Which is to say, a PM who is qualified in an Agile theme vs a PM who is qualified in a Waterfall theme.

A Scrum Master vs a PRINCE II chap. Still a PM.

Wrong I'm afraid,

That's not to say that any one PM's can't perform the Scrum Master role and any one Scrum Master can't perform a PM role, but they are different roles, have different responsibilities and require different skills. If someone has the skills to do either, it just makes them flexible; it does not make the roles the same.

But I'm not surprised so many people think they are the same since so many workplaces conflate the two as part of their "Agile Transformation".

[simes]

If Agile is just a form of delivery, of which there are many flavours, and Waterfall is another form of delivery, of which there are many flavours, the chap at the top is still Delivery focused which, for the purposes of this discussion, is called a Project Manager.

Yes the roles differ in a skill set. They differ from the Waterfall vs Agile rationale. And then delving deeper, will further differ between Scrum and PRINCE II.

At the end of the day, a job advert will likely ask for a Project Manager and then within the blurb, demand a variety of flavours.

As for my interest in this, I am a PM, and have been involved in these areas. And, at the end of the day, the boss just wants summat delivered.

Let's not add Delivery Manager into the mix...!

[Paralytic]

If Agile is just a form of delivery, of which there are many flavours, and Waterfall is another form of delivery, of which there are many flavours, the chap at the top is still Delivery focused which, for the purposes of this discussion, is called a Project Manager.

And there's the crux of many misunderstandings, the Scrum Master is not "the chap at the top".

If a team is delivering status updates to the Scrum Master, and the Scrum Master is planning deliveries, then that Scrum Master is doing a Project Manager role, no matter what their job title is. A single person can be doing both the PM role and the Scrum Master role, but it does not make them the same roles.

This page (random google search) adds some flavour:

Scrum Master vs Project Manager - Differences & Similarities

You can also add Porftolio Manager into the mix

[edison]

Unless you're working in test automation, I think testing would be one of the worst contracting areas to work in for the foreseeable future.

Can’t say I agree. There will always be a need for manual testing. You can’t automate everything. Everyone was saying the same about PM roles because of Agile but there are hardly any scrum master roles either.


Sent from my iPhone using Contractor UK Forum

I don't believe manual testing will completely disappear but I doubt long term demand and rates will be that attractive.

[CheeseSlice]

This morning

Agent: "Hi CheeseSlice.. are you available?, I have an urgent contract that needs to start Monday ideally.. can you be on a call with the client this afternoon?.."
Me: "Yes I am.. My rate is X.. sure the call is OK"
Agent now sounding very excited: "Great thats all fine, I'll go and set up the call for this afternoon and let you know the details!!"
<Hangs up>

6 hours later...

[TheInvoicer]

Saying PM and Scrum Master is the same job/skill set is very wrong. It’s 2 very different jobs and surprising at this stage of the game with agile that can still be thought.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[northernladuk]

It's like people saying an experienced PM/PMO. Am like.. What??

[TheInvoicer]

It's like people saying an experienced PM/PMO. Am like.. What??

It’s like an experienced salesman/mainframe support engineer role..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk