perm to contract - IR35 and stuff

**ICantStop** · 10 May 2015, 08:30

I would declare yourself inside ir35 but negotiate a higher rate to cover this.

**tractor** · 10 May 2015, 10:51

...

Originally posted by rootsnall View Post

The scenario is I've been Perm for 4+ years and am now getting made redundant ( involuntary ) as various projects come to an end and post go live support switches to a third party. But as expected, my about to be ex employer will need a bit more of my skillset than the high up bosses think, and I've been sounded out about a contract. I know I know

IR35. I was previously a contractor since the dawn of time so know about IR35 etc etc but I'm a bit out of date. I have just been having a search and google on the latest with IR35 and not much appears to be different. I came across "HMRC IR35 Scenarios and Business Entity Tests (BETS)" but then it looks like its just been shelved !?! The contract I have verbally been negotiating would be through a 3rd party ( on PSL ) and at least verbally ( and via email ) it has been agreed that if there is no work then I'll be amusing myself elsewhere ( so no MOO ). I envisage the work will be intermittent and in effect part time. And will be performed remotely ( my office ) and with my equipment ( my laptop ). Also a decent chance I will be doing bits and bobs for other end users if I CBA. I won't be declaring myself inside IR35 and will have the finances to pay up if I ever get nabbed. So this is an exercise in minimising the risk ! Is there a latest and greatest IR35 friendly contract out there ( I was in the PCG ) that reflects the latest developments ? I may have a chance to influence the contract. That's about it, any views, recommendations, etc etc Tin hat now on !

I'm thinking I'll be relying strongly on no MOO and will back this up with plenty ongoing email evidence with the line manager dealing with me. And also make sure I do have plenty gaps with no work being done. It won't be 5 days a week, that's why I'm doing it.

ps1. if I make my Mrs a shareholder does she have to tick the nasty box on her self assessment ( income via a service Co or words to that effect )

ps2. if I make my Mrs an employee and pay her under the NI threshold does that put that bit of income outside IR35

You have been a contractor before, you have included many things in your risk assessment above but you have omitted to consider the only thing HMRC will be interested in - that has not changed since the intention of IR35 was in part to combat the F2M scenario. If you will be doing the same thing(s) in your new contract that you were doing the Friday before, you WILL be considered by HMRC as IR35 caught. I don't think any of the mitigation you have put above will make a jot of difference.

**SlipTheJab** · 10 May 2015, 12:11

Originally posted by tractor View Post

You have been a contractor before, you have included many things in your risk assessment above but you have omitted to consider the only thing HMRC will be interested in - that has not changed since the intention of IR35 was in part to combat the F2M scenario. If you will be doing the same thing(s) in your new contract that you were doing the Friday before, you WILL be considered by HMRC as IR35 caught. I don't think any of the mitigation you have put above will make a jot of difference.

+1 I had the same issue when I left my last permie place, offered a contract to carry on, I didn't walk from that contract offer I ran!

**rootsnall** · 10 May 2015, 13:23

Originally posted by tractor View Post

You have been a contractor before, you have included many things in your risk assessment above but you have omitted to consider the only thing HMRC will be interested in - that has not changed since the intention of IR35 was in part to combat the F2M scenario. If you will be doing the same thing(s) in your new contract that you were doing the Friday before, you WILL be considered by HMRC as IR35 caught. I don't think any of the mitigation you have put above will make a jot of difference.

I think I agree with you BUT has there ever been any rulings to confirm that. I don't remember any specific rulings to that effect when I used to follow these things. I could put in a decent argument to say I'm not doing the same role, my fulltime 5 day a week job disappeared due to an outsourcing deal

If it was only one lot of 12% then I wouldn't be that fussed, but 2 lots

**mudskipper** · 10 May 2015, 14:11

Originally posted by rootsnall View Post

I think I agree with you BUT has there ever been any rulings to confirm that. I don't remember any specific rulings to that effect when I used to follow these things. I could put in a decent argument to say I'm not doing the same role, my fulltime 5 day a week job disappeared due to an outsourcing deal

If it was only one lot of 12% then I wouldn't be that fussed, but 2 lots

I took the risk on it, but the role I was made redundant from (dev team lead) was outsourced and I was basically doing 2 days a week (remote and at times determined by me) support to keep stuff going until the outsourced dev team got the new system in. I then went full time for a while in a testing role on the new system - but took great pains to ensure I was different to when perm. I also got work from two other clients during that time. I'm happy enough I could argue my case, and if push came to shove I haven't spent the money yet!

One thing to think about - if they still need you (therefore your role isn't really redundant) HMRC could argue that your redundancy pay is taxable too...

All in all, better to look for a new gig, but tough to turn down good money in an environment you're comfortable in...

**rootsnall** · 10 May 2015, 14:43

Thanks for the replies. Some pondering to do and a few phone calls to make tomorrow. The job market (

I mean contract market ) is good, so finding something else shouldn't be a problem, but for various reasons the cushy option is attractive. Or perhaps I've just gone soft !

Is IPSE/PCG membership still OK for the investigation cover ?

**mudskipper** · 10 May 2015, 16:24

Originally posted by rootsnall View Post

Thanks for the replies. Some pondering to do and a few phone calls to make tomorrow. The job market (

I mean contract market ) is good, so finding something else shouldn't be a problem, but for various reasons the cushy option is attractive. Or perhaps I've just gone soft !

Is IPSE/PCG membership still OK for the investigation cover ?

Indeed it is - and if you sign up before Thursday you can vote in the CC elections! Referral code IPSEMGM0004 to get us a tenner each!

https://www.ipse.co.uk/member-benefits

**PerfectStorm** · 10 May 2015, 17:26

If you enter the discount code ARM you get 15% off too:

Join the IPSE | ARM

**tractor** · 10 May 2015, 17:42

....

Originally posted by rootsnall View Post

I think I agree with you BUT has there ever been any rulings to confirm that. I don't remember any specific rulings to that effect when I used to follow these things. I could put in a decent argument to say I'm not doing the same role, my fulltime 5 day a week job disappeared due to an outsourcing deal

If it was only one lot of 12% then I wouldn't be that fussed, but 2 lots

You only have to ask yourself one question....Are you going to be doing the same things next week as last?

It matters not if you will be doing some other things as well or you will be doing less of those things. If they are the same things, HMRC will say you are caught. You could chance it, you may never get investigated, but if you do, it is not about 'decent arguments' it is about facts.

perm to contract - IR35 and stuff