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Terminating Contract Early

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    So, I am going to offer a substitute. Must the substitute do exactly the same hours, working conditions as me? For example I tend to do 8-5 always on site, my substitute may require different hours or working from a different location. Can the company say "You must do these hours and be on site every day"?

    Regards

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      Originally posted by TheFaQQer View Post
      Pretty much, yes.

      "This is Dave - he'll be taking over my role here. Dave's been a senior widget wangler for many years, and has the same kind of skills I provide when I wangle your widgets. Since Dave is contracted to my company, I'll still be available for him to contact me, and obviously my company is still liable for everything in the same way that it was before when it was just me. But it won't be a problem - Dave is as close to a like-for-like replacement as you'll get to me, so you're in good hands with him as an individual but still backed by the same quality service that my company has always provided"

      Or something similar.
      Client - Yes but you've been here 3 months now and know the systems here, Dave won't. It'll take Dave a few weeks to get up to speed with our infrastructure and how we do things. Sorry no thanks - we need you here.

      99% of the clients IMHO will say this.
      Rhyddid i lofnod psychocandy!!!!

      Comment


        Originally posted by icemancomeths View Post
        So, I am going to offer a substitute. Must the substitute do exactly the same hours, working conditions as me? For example I tend to do 8-5 always on site, my substitute may require different hours or working from a different location. Can the company say "You must do these hours and be on site every day"?

        Regards
        8-5. 30 mins for lunch I assume? 8.5 hours.

        Are you on PWD or hours?
        Rhyddid i lofnod psychocandy!!!!

        Comment


          Originally posted by psychocandy View Post
          Client - Yes but you've been here 3 months now and know the systems here, Dave won't. It'll take Dave a few weeks to get up to speed with our infrastructure and how we do things. Sorry no thanks - we need you here.

          99% of the clients IMHO will say this.
          Snap! This got said. How do I justify this?

          Comment


            Originally posted by icemancomeths View Post
            Snap! This got said. How do I justify this?
            You don't. IMO it's very uncommon a client will take a sub so don't get tied up in knots about it. Most client managers don't see you as a service. If you leave they just get another body in.
            'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

            Comment


              Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
              You don't. IMO it's very uncommon a client will take a sub so don't get tied up in knots about it. Most client managers don't see you as a service. If you leave they just get another body in.
              NLUK in decent comment shocker ;-)

              Most clients I've ever had would be surprised to learn theres a sub clause in there. They'd be horrified if you tried to invoke it.
              To most your just another person whos not there permanently.
              Rhyddid i lofnod psychocandy!!!!

              Comment


                Originally posted by psychocandy View Post
                Client - Yes but you've been here 3 months now and know the systems here, Dave won't. It'll take Dave a few weeks to get up to speed with our infrastructure and how we do things. Sorry no thanks - we need you here.

                99% of the clients IMHO will say this.
                Have a look at the wording of the substitute clause and see what the terms are that prevent you from providing a substitute.

                For example, it might say something like "The Client has the right to refuse to accept the Substitute offered on any reasonable grounds in which case the Sub-contractor shall offer a further Substitute" - and you would have to show that their refusal is unreasonable.

                If they refuse because they don't like him, then it's an unreasonable refusal - so if they refuse, they are breaking the contract.

                If they refuse on the grounds that Dave won't be up to speed on day one, then you provide top-up cover to ensure that any downtime is minimal - "well, I've thought about that, so for three days next week, both myself and Dave will be here to make sure he's up to speed on how the specifics work, and after that I'm only a phone call away if he needs me".

                There are three possible outcomes that the OP should be aiming for here:
                1. client accept the substitute and everything is hunky dory
                2. client won't accept the substitute, but do so in a manner which means that they are breaking the contract so (s)he can get out
                3. client don't want to think about it, so terminate the contract


                Whichever of those happens, the result is generally the same - the individual gets out the door, which is what they wanted all along, but they do it in a manner which doesn't leave them open to legal issues.
                Last edited by TheFaQQer; 20 March 2015, 11:01.
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                Comment


                  [QUOTE=TheFaQQer;2071376]Have a look at the wording of the substitute clause and see what the terms are that prevent you from providing a substitute.

                  For example, it might say something like "The Client has the right to refuse to accept the Substitute offered on any reasonable grounds in which case the Sub-contractor shall offer a further Substitute" - and you would have to show that their refusal is unreasonable.

                  If they refuse because they don't like him, then it's an unreasonable refusal - so if they refuse, they are breaking the contract. QUOTE]


                  These subbies everybody is talking about here. Where do you find them. Is there a subbie pool somewhere full of very capable people who are benched through choice and available at a moment's notice for an indeterminate period and do we have the mechanisms, risk-taking capacity and policies set up to run them as our employees?

                  Forgive me, but what I read here suggests that most of us are very easily replaced (this is the important bit....mid project). Is that really the case and if you were the hiring manager would you feel warm and comfortable about accepting thefirst and possibly only substitute you were offered. How many people did you interview before hiring the guy who now wants you to accept his substitute?

                  If we are to behave professionally we have to weigh the client's options carefully, as we do our own. Whatever we say here (and with respect to the skilled trades) we are mainly knowledge/creative/ innovative specialists...... why else do we denigrate the code cutting Bobs?

                  Offering a substitute is a lot more than a legal device to alter a contract's duration.
                  Last edited by Taita; 20 March 2015, 12:26.

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                    Services to be performed by a substitute, and in any event for all Services performed on its behalf. Where the Consultancy’s charges are on a time and materials basis, or where any individual who will provide Services is named in a Schedule (or the Client has a reasonable expectation that the Services will primarily be provided by a specific individual), it is the Consultancy’s responsibility to ensure that the relevant skills and experience of any replacement personnel remain commensurate with the fee rates charged.
                    It is the Client’s responsibility to afford the Consultancy with such access, information and staff cooperation as the Consultancy may reasonably require for the proper performance of any Services, and for ensuring that all relevant Health and Safety policies, risks, information and relevant statutory compliance measures are disclosed to the Consultancy.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Taita View Post
                      These subbies everybody is talking about here. Where do you find them. Is there a subbie pool somewhere full of very capable people who are benched through choice and available at a moment's notice for an indeterminate period and do we have the mechanisms, risk-taking capacity and policies set up to run them as our employees?
                      When I did it, I had a friend who was available. He wasn't my employee, though, he contracted through his company to mine, and my company provided the services that we were contracted to deliver.

                      From April, I wouldn't subcontract. I would purchase a specific service from his company, though

                      Originally posted by Taita View Post
                      Forgive me, but what I read here suggests that most of us are very easily replaced (this is the important bit....mid project). Is that really the case and if you were the hiring manager would you feel warm and comfortable about accepting thefirst and possibly only substitute you were offered. How many people did you interview before hiring the guy who now wants you to accept his substitute?
                      I didn't interview anyone, and I didn't hire anyone. I brought in the professional services of another company to deliver the contract while my company was unable to do so. I had no qualms about doing it, and I would do it again.

                      It depends a little on what you do and what stage of the project lifecycle you are at - if I was writing technical documentation based on code that had already been delivered, I'd have no qualms about getting someone with better writing skills than myself to do that work for me, for example. If it was the start of the project and I was designing the solution that I would have to deliver, I'd be less likely to do it because I wouldn't want to have to build to someone else's design when I could be building to my own.

                      Legally and professionally, your company is liable to deliver to the same level that they already were - which is why you need to trust the person you are bringing in as a substitute.

                      Originally posted by Taita View Post
                      If we are to behave professionally we have to weigh the client's options carefully, as we do our own. Whatever we say here (and with respect to the skilled trades) we are mainly knowledge/creative/ innovative specialists...... why else do we denigrate the code cutting Bobs?
                      The reason I denigrate those that aren't very good at their job is that they aren't very good at their job. I don't denigrate based on their nationality, however - but if I was bringing someone in then I would expect them to be able to do the job to the appropriate level. After all, my company is liable for their delivery, so why would I consider someone who couldn't do the job?

                      Originally posted by Taita View Post
                      Offering a substitute is a lot more than a legal device to alter a contract's duration.
                      I agree.
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