Timesheet IR35 indicator?

[northernladuk]

Argh!

So I should

• Get the project (s) names amended into my contract in the "services" section
• Try to obtain a written set of project deliverables from the Client
• Add the project name into all my future invoices

The last point has nothing to do with it IMO. I think SueEllen wasn't quite correct on that point re IR35 status. You can bill for anything you want to, whether it's in the contract or not. It's irrelevant, but you should be doing it out of good practice IMO so people know exactly what you are billing for. If you are ever lucky enough to get multiple streams of income you need to show it.

[TheFaQQer]

I would not, but that's not what I am asking. If the builder was investigated for IR35 would it be detrimental for his services to be specified as "Build Stuff"?

Yes, but you need to ask yourself how relevant that is to your situation.

Are they under my direction and control? Possibly. They are doing work that changes from a day-to-day basis, and I tell them what I need them to do. Do I monitor them and check how they are doing the work? No. Do I tell them how to do the work? No. Do I trust to their expertise and let them get on with the job? Yes. Therefore, any element of direction and control could be shaky.

If they got someone else in to do the work (and they were as good as the builder I engaged, and the builder I engaged took responsibility for their work), would I complain? No. I would let them - RoS proved.

If there is no work for them to do, do I pay them? No. If they finish the initial contract length and there is work to do, do I have to offer it to them? No. Do they have to accept? No. Lack of MoO proved.

REMEMBER - HMRC NEED TO PROVE D&C, RoS AND MOO TO WIN AN IR35 CASE. YOU ONLY NEED ONE OF THOSE TO BE IN YOUR FAVOUR TO WIN.

[TheFaQQer]

Argh!

So I should

• Get the project (s) names amended into my contract in the "services" section
• Try to obtain a written set of project deliverables from the Client
• Add the project name into all my future invoices

Think about what level of direction and control the client is exerting over you. Do they tell you what to do, when to do it, how to do it? Do they dictate where you do it (for no good reason)?

That's where you should be focussing the D&C argument (if necessary) - the rest is paperwork and rejigging, and remember that if it suits them HMRC will try to discard the paperwork anyway.

If you aren't sure on D&C (and I think this is where most genuine contractors will win their cases, but I have no evidence for that!), then look at RoS and lack of MoO.

And if you are worried about it, then supplement your IPSE+ membership with TLC35 from Qdos who will fight your case, fund the defence and (if necessary) pay out any penalties, tax and interest. For £360 a year, it should help you sleep easier.

[Tasslehoff]

The last point has nothing to do with it IMO. I think SueEllen wasn't quite correct on that point re IR35 status. You can bill for anything you want to, whether it's in the contract or not. It's irrelevant, but you should be doing it out of good practice IMO so people know exactly what you are billing for. If you are ever lucky enough to get multiple streams of income you need to show it.

Thanks, I will certainly implement the first two bits thanks for your advice.

I must say it's quite scary how many different opinions people have on this one subject! Wish it was clearer!

[Tasslehoff]

Think about what level of direction and control the client is exerting over you. Do they tell you what to do, when to do it, how to do it? Do they dictate where you do it (for no good reason)?

That's where you should be focussing the D&C argument (if necessary) - the rest is paperwork and rejigging, and remember that if it suits them HMRC will try to discard the paperwork anyway.

If you aren't sure on D&C (and I think this is where most genuine contractors will win their cases, but I have no evidence for that!), then look at RoS and lack of MoO.

And if you are worried about it, then supplement your IPSE+ membership with TLC35 from Qdos who will fight your case, fund the defence and (if necessary) pay out any penalties, tax and interest. For £360 a year, it should help you sleep easier.

Argh, slightly contradicts northenlad but this makes sense also.

In regards to your first point, I have total direction and control. I have been given a very broad task (s), I choose my hours, what site I attend and what methods I choose to implement the solutions are my own. So that has to be in my favor right?

In regards to RoS it is written into my contract, but between you and I, I can't see my Client being happy if I throw in a subbie and bugger off. However if they were as good as me and I brought them up to speed, then they should be fine with that.

MoO? If there is no work, they would can me within a week. Again that is written into my contract. Thanks again for your help

[northernladuk]

I must say it's quite scary how many different opinions people have on this one subject! Wish it was clearer!

I must admit I don't see many different opinions. You see different levels of pedantry with TF taking a generic approach and me being pedantic about the small stuff which I think in this case is needed. It all leads to the same thing to get it documented and agreed and don't just do something because you are asked. When you fully understand it you can then afford to take a slightly more generic approach and understand the risks.

[TheFaQQer]

Argh, slightly contradicts northenlad but this makes sense also.

We often do.

We're both right. But one of us is more right than the other

[jamesbrown]

If you aren't sure on D&C (and I think this is where most genuine contractors will win their cases, but I have no evidence for that!)

I agree that D&C is the most important real-world distinction, even if that isn't borne out by case law (I don't know). This is partly because, in may cases, several of the elements of D&C can be difficult to argue as anything other than neutral. For example, the "where" and "when" are often neutral due to the restrictions of being onsite. The "how" will be argued more neutral if you have highly specialist knowledge (since it would apply to permies too). The "what" is often more straightforward to show as positive if you are doing project-based work that is identified in a schedule of work. In any case, if you can clearly show some or all of these elements of D&C through documented evidence (e.g. by working from home, during your own chosen hours, on project-based work specified in the contract, and using your own methodologies), you'll be in a very strong position.

[northernladuk]

We often do.

We're both right. But one of us is more right than the other

And one of us is explaining exactly how it should be but the other is trying to make all elements clear to a newbie so he can be in a position to make a decision in the future

One of us probably failed in his attempt to be fair, but he tried.

[LondonManc]

Happy with most of the aspects of IR35 but hadn't read about the working hours part.

Essentially because I'm working a non-standard working week (I don't work a full Friday afternoon but make up the hours outside it to deliver the minimum contractually required per week) then that's a big outside IR35 plus?

TIA