Where are all the winners today?

[original PM]

I don't need to know the details (for the record, what I've seen so far is not bad, it's the best of a bad situation). In our democracy we have delegated authority for our government to act on our behalf. The Tories were voted in to do that. They have negotiated a deal that they consider the best for the country. I will have my personal say on that at the ballot box next time there is a GE.

Why don't you tell us, as a Brexiter who presumably voted Tory at the last GE, why you think your party has not delivered your wishes. Twice you have voted for this situation, twice you 'won', yet you seem upset. Who's the fool?

Because I am waiting to see what actually happens.

And no I am not really emotionally invested at all.

[Whorty]

Am I the only one who thinks this may have been TMs plan all along. For the first time last night she put 3 options on the table.

1. Accept the proposed deal
2. No deal.
3. Remain in the EU

As a remainer TM has played a corker. Deliver a deal so bad no one in their right mind will vote for it, as there is no hope of getting anything through parliament with the lack of a majority she has. The deal gets voted down so we are left with no deal, also not acceptable to parliament or stay in the EU. Hey presto she delivers what 48% of the people who voted in the referendum voted for (including herself) - staying in the EU. Blinding strategy...Or am I giving her more credit than she deserves.

I partly agree with you, yes she has played a corker. I don't think she has specifically got a bad deal (don't forget, Raab was negotiating this up until yesterday), she has in fact got the best deal given the circumstances. Brexiters believe in unicorns, but there are no unicorns. May knows this, and always knew this. BoJo and JRM know this, if they really thought otherwise they would have stepped up already, taken control, and delivered this magic solution.

What May is now saying is ... this is the best you'll get .... take it or risk no deal or no Brexit. Brexiters don't want the risk of no Brexit, and pretty much everyone else doesn't want the risk of no deal.

Of course the 4th option is a GE with a Corbyn government and who knows what that will deliver. UK still in the SM and CU? Would Brexiters like that more?

[Yorkie62]

I don't need to know the details (for the record, what I've seen so far is not bad, it's the best of a bad situation). In our democracy we have delegated authority for our government to act on our behalf. The Tories were voted in to do that. They have negotiated a deal that they consider the best for the country. I will have my personal say on that at the ballot box next time there is a GE.

Why don't you tell us, as a Brexiter who presumably voted Tory at the last GE, why you think your party has not delivered your wishes. Twice you have voted for this situation, twice you 'won', yet you seem upset. Who's the fool?

The Torys were the only party who were remotely interested in attempting to delivering a Brexit (apart from UKIP and they were never a real political party in the first place). The Tories haven't managed to deliver a Brexit yet!

My gripe is with Cameron who should have stayed on and taken the poison challis that was Brexit.

Who will I vote for at the next GE? Well none of the political parties have a coherent strategy for the future prosperity of the country, so unless one of them can "pull a rabbit out of the hat" I will make my view known on the ballot paper.

[sal]

Am I the only one who thinks this may have been TMs plan all along. For the first time last night she put 3 options on the table.

1. Accept the proposed deal
2. No deal.
3. Remain in the EU

As a remainer TM has played a corker. Deliver a deal so bad no one in their right mind will vote for it, as there is no hope of getting anything through parliament with the lack of a majority she has. The deal gets voted down so we are left with no deal, also not acceptable to parliament or stay in the EU. Hey presto she delivers what 48% of the people who voted in the referendum voted for (including herself) - staying in the EU. Blinding strategy...Or am I giving her more credit than she deserves.

It obviously a bad deal, but unfortunately this is the only realistic deal (or at least close approximation). By now any sane and semi-intelligent person should be aware that the majority of the promises made by the Brexit campaign were fairy tales.

The best approach would be to call in a binding referendum with these 3 options and let the great unwashed decide.

[Whorty]

Because I am waiting to see what actually happens.

And no I am not really emotionally invested at all.

But let's assume May does get her proposal through parliament ... would you be happy with that version of Brexit? If she doesn't get it through, would you be happy with a 2nd ref, or another GE and risk Labour getting in (propped up by the SNP who support remain)?

Brexit MPs need to MTFU, get behind what has been negotiated (which does deliver most of what we consider Brexit to be) and start to deliver rather than constantly snipping from the back benches.

[Yorkie62]

Or just hand in 48 letterstothe 1922 committee and trigger a leadership election for more added chaos

Sent from my SM-G955F using Contractor UK Forum mobile app

[original PM]

But let's assume May does get her proposal through parliament ... would you be happy with that version of Brexit? If she doesn't get it through, would you be happy with a 2nd ref, or another GE and risk Labour getting in (propped up by the SNP who support remain)?

Brexit MPs need to MTFU, get behind what has been negotiated (which does deliver most of what we consider Brexit to be) and start to deliver rather than constantly snipping from the back benches.

Can I actually influence any of that?

No clearly not so I just have to wait and see.

Ultimately we will get what we get and neither me, you or anyone else on this board will have a say on that.

On the subject of politicians - they are pretty much all ******* - at least by leaving the EU we get rid of 751

[darmstadt]

Can I actually influence any of that?

No clearly not so I just have to wait and see.

Ultimately we will get what we get and neither me, you or anyone else on this board will have a say on that.

On the subject of politicians - they are pretty much all ******* - at least by leaving the EU we get rid of 751

Ah, but are you leaving the EU, that's the whole crux of the argument and if you are, when?

[darmstadt]

For opm and others who can't be bothered to read the (draft) withdrawal agreement and see what they voted for, here are the highlights in one big blurb:

Following are the deal’s main points:Irish ‘backstop’The deal outlines a “backstop” arrangement to prevent the return of border checks between Northern Ireland and Ireland if the sides fail to agree a free trade pact after a 21-month transition period.In a bid to allay British concerns that Northern Ireland would be split from the rest of Britain, the two sides agreed to an EU-UK single customs territory.Northern Ireland would follow EU single market rules on the movement of all products, including agricultural goods.With the UK applying the EU’s Customs Code in Northern Ireland, Northern Irish businesses would bring goods into the single market without restrictions.The draft also stipulates that the Northern Irish economy retain unfettered access to the rest of the UK.At London’s request, Northern Ireland will apply all the rules of the single market for electricity.In the single EU-UK customs territory, UK goods will enjoy tariff and quota free access to the remaining 27 EU countries.To ensure competition is fair for manufactured goods, there are provisions on state aid, competition, taxation, social and environmental standards.EU diplomats had expressed fears British companies could manufacture products more cheaply if they dropped EU standards.Both sides have given themselves until 1 July 2020 to outline a deal to replace the backstop. If one is not ready by then, they could extend the transition period.At any point after the transition period, either side can rule that the arrangement is no longer necessary, but they must take the decision together.Transition periodDuring a transition period ending on 31 December 2020, EU law will apply to give national administrations and businesses time to prepare for new ties.This means the UK will continue to participate in the EU Customs Union and the Single Market.It allows Britain continued market access to the remaining 27 EU countries but it must respect the rules on free movement of goods, capital, services and labour.The British government will lose the right to vote on any decisions taken by the 27 other member states, the European Commission and the European Parliament.‘Citizens rights’The draft deal preserves the rights of the more than three million EU citizens living in Britain and the one million British citizens living in the EU.EU and UK citizens, as well as their family members, can continue to live, work or study enjoying equal treatment to host nationals under the respective laws.It covers all such citizens who arrive before the transition period ends. They will maintain their right to healthcare, pensions and other social security benefits.Brexit billCovering Britain’s outstanding financial obligations to the bloc, it calls for a fair settlement for UK taxpayers that the British government estimates to be up to £39 billion (€44 billion).Dispute resolutionDisputes between businesses or other entities will be consulted on in a joint committee and, if no mutually agreed solution can be found, it will be resolved by an independent arbitration panel.GibraltarWith longstanding Spanish claims to Britain’s neighbouring Mediterranean outcrop of Gibraltar, all sides sought to defuse any future tensions.The deal provides for Spanish-British cooperation on citizens’ rights, tobacco and other products, environment, police and customs matters.It sets the basis for administrative cooperation for achieving full transparency in tax matters, fighting fraud, smuggling and money laundering.British bases in CyprusThe deal aims to ensure no disruption or loss of rights for the 11,000 Cypriot civilians living and working in the areas of the British sovereign military bases.It aims to ensure that EU law will continue to apply in the base areas, including on taxation, goods, agriculture, fisheries and veterinary and phytosanitary rules.Other pointsIt oversees the UK’s withdrawal from Euratom, the EU treaty on nuclear energy, protects intellectual property, including trademarks as well as more than 3,000 EU geographical indications.The latter cover regional brands such as Welsh lamb, Parma ham, Champagne, Bayerisches bier, Feta cheese, Tokaj wine, Pastel de Tentúgal, Vinagre de Jerez.Future tiesSeparate from the divorce agreement, the two sides still have to negotiate their future relationship, particularly on trade.

[Bean]

Following are the deal’s main points:

Irish ‘backstop’:
The deal outlines a “backstop” arrangement to prevent the return of border checks between Northern Ireland and Ireland if the sides fail to agree a free trade pact after a 21-month transition period.
In a bid to allay British concerns that Northern Ireland would be split from the rest of Britain, the two sides agreed to an EU-UK single customs territory.
Northern Ireland would follow EU single market rules on the movement of all products, including agricultural goods.
With the UK applying the EU’s Customs Code in Northern Ireland, Northern Irish businesses would bring goods into the single market without restrictions.
The draft also stipulates that the Northern Irish economy retain unfettered access to the rest of the UK.
At London’s request, Northern Ireland will apply all the rules of the single market for electricity.

In the single EU-UK customs territory, UK goods will enjoy tariff and quota free access to the remaining 27 EU countries.
To ensure competition is fair for manufactured goods, there are provisions on state aid, competition, taxation, social and environmental standards.
EU diplomats had expressed fears British companies could manufacture products more cheaply if they dropped EU standards.
Both sides have given themselves until 1 July 2020 to outline a deal to replace the backstop.
If one is not ready by then, they could extend the transition period.
At any point after the transition period, either side can rule that the arrangement is no longer necessary, but they must take the decision together.


Transition period:
During a transition period ending on 31 December 2020, EU law will apply to give national administrations and businesses time to prepare for new ties.
This means the UK will continue to participate in the EU Customs Union and the Single Market.
It allows Britain continued market access to the remaining 27 EU countries but it must respect the rules on free movement of goods, capital, services and labour.
The British government will lose the right to vote on any decisions taken by the 27 other member states, the European Commission and the European Parliament.


‘Citizens rights’:
The draft deal preserves the rights of the more than three million EU citizens living in Britain and the one million British citizens living in the EU.
EU and UK citizens, as well as their family members, can continue to live, work or study enjoying equal treatment to host nationals under the respective laws.
It covers all such citizens who arrive before the transition period ends. They will maintain their right to healthcare, pensions and other social security benefits.
Brexit billCovering Britain’s outstanding financial obligations to the bloc, it calls for a fair settlement for UK taxpayers that the British government estimates to be up to £39 billion (€44 billion).

Dispute resolution:
Disputes between businesses or other entities will be consulted on in a joint committee and, if no mutually agreed solution can be found, it will be resolved by an independent arbitration panel.

Gibraltar:
With longstanding Spanish claims to Britain’s neighbouring Mediterranean outcrop of Gibraltar, all sides sought to defuse any future tensions.
The deal provides for Spanish-British cooperation on citizens’ rights, tobacco and other products, environment, police and customs matters.
It sets the basis for administrative cooperation for achieving full transparency in tax matters, fighting fraud, smuggling and money laundering.

British bases in Cyprus:
The deal aims to ensure no disruption or loss of rights for the 11,000 Cypriot civilians living and working in the areas of the British sovereign military bases.
It aims to ensure that EU law will continue to apply in the base areas, including on taxation, goods, agriculture, fisheries and veterinary and phytosanitary rules.
Other pointsIt oversees the UK’s withdrawal from Euratom, the EU treaty on nuclear energy, protects intellectual property, including trademarks as well as more than 3,000 EU geographical indications.
The latter cover regional brands such as Welsh lamb, Parma ham, Champagne, Bayerisches bier, Feta cheese, Tokaj wine, Pastel de Tentúgal, Vinagre de Jerez.

Future ties:
Separate from the divorce agreement, the two sides still have to negotiate their future relationship, particularly on trade.

ftfy