Hard Brexit Coming Up On The Outside

[Cirrus]

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a8411391.html

The various soft Brexit proposals all seem to offend red lines (free movement, high contributions to EU Budget, EU control of laws). These are not just Tory red lines; they were all sold as part of the Referendum proposition. Hard Brexit is more unpalatable than voters imagined but at least you clearly win. The logic is persuasive.

[meridian]

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a8411391.html

The various soft Brexit proposals all seem to offend red lines (free movement, high contributions to EU Budget, EU control of laws). These are not just Tory red lines; they were all sold as part of the Referendum proposition. Hard Brexit is more unpalatable than voters imagined but at least you clearly win. The logic is persuasive.

There was no vote for any “soft” Brexit, the vote was to leave and not on what any future trade deal would look like.

“Win”, though. What has been won?

[Whorty]

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a8411391.html

The various soft Brexit proposals all seem to offend red lines (free movement, high contributions to EU Budget, EU control of laws). These are not just Tory red lines; they were all sold as part of the Referendum proposition. Hard Brexit is more unpalatable than voters imagined but at least you clearly win. The logic is persuasive.

Seems to me both sides are playing 'who's going to blink first', both thinking they're in the strongest position and the other side needs to give in and both sadly wrong. The result will be a hard Brexit which will do massive damage to both sides but the arrogance of both negotiators will make this inevitable. Those who will most get hurt by all this are the poorer in the communities who have been hoodwinked by the far right ideology and nationalism.

Hard Brexit is almost inevitable, and being so, just do it now so that we can get on with it and deal with the resultant sh1t.

[scooterscot]

There was no vote for any “soft” Brexit, the vote was to leave and not on what any future trade deal would look like.

“Win”, though. What has been won?

Brexit: the undefined negotiated by the unprepared to get the unspecified for the uninformed.

[Cirrus]

“Win”, though. What has been won?

Well, yes, you're right. It's not winning; it's rather a question of not losing so obviously.

There's not the slightest sign of the EU cracking and giving the UK a special cake-and-eat-it deal, so that looks like Hard as the only option left. It will be painful but 'a price that has to be paid in the short term for long term gain' and of course entirely the fault of the EU, thus validating the whole exercise.

[meridian]

Well, yes, you're right. It's not winning; it's rather a question of not losing so obviously.

There's not the slightest sign of the EU cracking and giving the UK a special cake-and-eat-it deal, so that looks like Hard as the only option left. It will be painful but 'a price that has to be paid in the short term for long term gain' and of course entirely the fault of the EU, thus validating the whole exercise.

I don’t know if you’re being sarcastic or not ;-)

Leave means leave, not “leave but only if you give us a special deal”. The U.K. is now a third country and entirely responsible for it’s own deals with all other countries. If the U.K. cannot strike a deal that it is happy with then that’s because either or a combination of:
- we have nothing the other party wants
- we are asking for too much in return
- our negotiators are rubbish

This applies not only to the EU, but to all other countries that we will need to strike deals with as well. At some,point the U.K. will need to stop stamping its feet like a toddler having a tantrum and negotiate on the basis of what we have and what’s on offer.

In the meantime, we leave with no deal because that’s what “the people” voted for.

I’m still not clear on what this “long term gain” is though. Presumably you don’t mean economically.

[Cirrus]

I’m still not clear on what this “long term gain” is though.

After all this time I personally have not seen any concrete evidence of anything good that will come of Brexit. However ideologies often use long-term promises to seduce people eg Christianity will let you live on after death. Indeed Christianity is a good analogy because it encourages you to put up with all sorts of real pain and misery in the here-and-now on the basis you will get future reward. It is sometimes described as a system to allow oppressors to oppress whilst encouraging the oppressed to see it as all part of God's Grand Plan. Certainly the Romans saw it as a good wheeze. Whether you see parallels with Brexit will depend on whether you voted for or against.

[Cirrus]

Fingers crossed over the shirts

- our negotiators are rubbish

I think you're being a bit unfair.

To me it's like you say to your wife "I'm leaving you because I don't like you any more. However I would like you to wash and iron my shirts after I've left. Can we agree on that?"

You'd need to be more that a good negotiator to get very far with that (although I accept it must have happened on occasions in the past, so not absolutely impossible).

[meridian]

I think you're being a bit unfair.

To me it's like you say to your wife "I'm leaving you because I don't like you any more. However I would like you to wash and iron my shirts after I've left. Can we agree on that?"

You'd need to be more that a good negotiator to get very far with that (although I accept it must have happened on occasions in the past, so not absolutely impossible).

Perhaps I am being a bit unfair. I know a couple of people in the civil service and they’re good people that are being unfairly maligned by association with their MP bosses.

“Inexperienced” (relative to the EU negotiators) might be better than “rubbish”, and as you rightly point out they’re trying to do their jobs with the cards they’ve been given plus the unrealistic (imo) expectations of MPs, the press, and some of the public.

[BlasterBates]

The trouble is the UK negotiators are playing cricket but actually the game is football.

Either they need to be negotiating a Swiss Style deal with a few extras, such as minor curbs on freedom of movement or Canada with a few extras, unfortunately they're too busy trying to breed Unicorns.

It's a bit like a contractor going round trying to negotiate day rates of no less than £1000. It's pointless.