Finally, we're discussing trade!

[tomtomagain]

Exactly, we want our cake and to eat it. They sell loads of cake to us and we sell less to them. That's us getting our cake.

TomTom, you seem a bit lost.

Lost? Never.

These negotiations are going exactly as I thought they would.

It's all noise and huffing and puffing. At the end of the day, agreements are reached. Politicians being politicians playing to their respective audiences.

There were 4 main items in phase 1. End of ECJ ( that's basically done, with some referral right which ends after 8 years ). Rights for citizens ( UK & EU ) - that's done. Maintain free movement in RoI/NI - sorted. Payment of liabilities to the EU agreed.

So both sides got what they wanted.

BREXIT is moving relentlessly forward. It's not stoppable.

[BlasterBates]

It is impossible to do this before the referendum. To do so you would have had to have had the complete negotiations done already with the EU27.

Then Cameron would have had to go to the public vote saying: "As you know, we 'negotiated' the outcome of BREXIT already, should you choose to take it." - it would have given the BREXIT crowd something to say "Look we have a deal in place already", they would have "proved" it was possible.

There were two ways to stop BREXIT. One was 25 years ago, by investing and supporting white working-class families across the country who feel marginalised and ignored.

The second was for Juncker and Merkel to give some ground on the freedom of movement when Cameron tried to get a better deal. They didn't believe we'd leave, so didn't give him anything to take back to the country. He didn't believe he'd lose so didn't push very hard.

It's not the left behind working-class families who voted Brexit it's the well to do pensioners and Baby boomers "what" swung it. Sure the working class voted against the government for Brexit, you will always have dissatisfaction of those at the bottom, but that's not where Brexit came from. It was farmers, small business people, wealthy pensioners, who live in areas where there are no foreigners but are annoyed at foreigners because they read it in the Daily Express. My mother lives with other retirees a block of flats, all staunch leavers and not a foreigner in sight.

It's like saying Trump got voted in by those who are left behind, not true they all live in the big cities and they didn't vote for him.

[meridian]

There were two ways to stop BREXIT. One was 25 years ago, by investing and supporting white working-class families across the country who feel marginalised and ignored.

Agreed. The way that the North of the country in particular has been treated in the last 40 years or so by successive governments has been appalling. However, the EU isn't the problem here and Brexit won't help this.

The second was for Juncker and Merkel to give some ground on the freedom of movement when Cameron tried to get a better deal. They didn't believe we'd leave, so didn't give him anything to take back to the country. He didn't believe he'd lose so didn't push very hard.

Oh FFS. The U.K. already has more opt outs than anyone. The U.K. could have implemented FoM restrictions already allowed by the EU but chose not to. At some point our country (and in particular the press) needs to grow up and start acting like an adult instead of a petulant whining child.

[tomtomagain]

Sure the working class voted against the government for Brexit, you will always have dissatisfaction of those at the bottom, but that's not where Brexit came from.

It's not "People at the bottom". It's People at the bottom who have felt that the whole system is stacked against them.

There is no chance of them moving to Germany ( don't speak German, don't have the skills ) or working in The City ( its a club for rich boys ) or taking advantage of the benefits of being in the EU. Couple this with the still relatively recent introduction of Free Movement, which means there is an effectively unlimited pool of workers ready to take work and compete with them both for jobs and for housing and other government resources.

If FM had resulted in a half million lawyers turning up driving down the price of a solicitor to £10ph it would not have been allowed to stand.

If you were an English shop assistant, waitress or lorry driver what possible reason would you have for not voting for BREXIT?

Some demographics are always going to vote leave ( boomers, pensioners, and so on ) but then again, some are always going to vote remain.

Its the left-behinds that could have been persuaded to vote REMAIN if they had been equipped by the country to take advantage of the EU rather than being shouted down as racists, idiots and bigots if they ever expressed concern.

PS My boomer-parents voted Remain, so that cancels out your mum.

[tomtomagain]

Agreed. The way that the North of the country in particular has been treated in the last 40 years or so by successive governments has been appalling. However, the EU isn't the problem here and Brexit won't help this.

But BREXIT was seen as the chance in a lifetime to shake the system.

Oh FFS. The U.K. already has more opt outs than anyone. The U.K. could have implemented FoM restrictions already allowed by the EU but chose not to. At some point our country (and in particular the press) needs to grow up and start acting like an adult instead of a petulant whining child.

So what if we have more opt-outs? It should be a relationship that works for the people within the countries, not a set of rules that keeps bureaucrats happy. It doesn't bother me if Germans opt out of some legislation that doesn't suit them, or the Italians disregard whatever doesn't work for them. Doesn't change my life.

There should have been far more opt-outs rather than trying to force a homogenized one-size-fits-all set of rules onto 28 distinct countries and populations, each with their own rich history, culture, strengths and weaknesses.

Also. They should have moved the EU parliament to Middlesbrough. That would have greatly boosted the local economy and helped with the vote.

[meridian]

But BREXIT was seen as the chance in a lifetime to shake the system.




So what if we have more opt-outs? It should be a relationship that works for the people within the countries, not a set of rules that keeps bureaucrats happy. It doesn't bother me if Germans opt out of some legislation that doesn't suit them, or the Italians disregard whatever doesn't work for them. Doesn't change my life.

There should have been far more opt-outs rather than trying to force a homogenized one-size-fits-all set of rules onto 28 distinct countries and populations, each with their own rich history, culture, strengths and weaknesses.

Also. They should have moved the EU parliament to Middlesbrough. That would have greatly boosted the local economy and helped with the vote.

So, which legislation would you have liked us to opt out of, that we don't already have control over?

[BlasterBates]

It's not "People at the bottom". It's People at the bottom who have felt that the whole system is stacked against them.

There is no chance of them moving to Germany ( don't speak German, don't have the skills ) or working in The City ( its a club for rich boys ) or taking advantage of the benefits of being in the EU. Couple this with the still relatively recent introduction of Free Movement, which means there is an effectively unlimited pool of workers ready to take work and compete with them both for jobs and for housing and other government resources.

If FM had resulted in a half million lawyers turning up driving down the price of a solicitor to £10ph it would not have been allowed to stand.

If you were an English shop assistant, waitress or lorry driver what possible reason would you have for not voting for BREXIT?

Some demographics are always going to vote leave ( boomers, pensioners, and so on ) but then again, some are always going to vote remain.

Its the left-behinds that could have been persuaded to vote REMAIN if they had been equipped by the country to take advantage of the EU rather than being shouted down as racists, idiots and bigots if they ever expressed concern.

PS My boomer-parents voted Remain, so that cancels out your mum.

Well lets see if leaving the EU will make them all better off, because up to now it hasn't been working out too well.

[jamesbrown]

So is his argument that he wants a Swiss-style agreement, and that most people list CH as a single market participant? That seems to confirm exactly my point?

No, his point is that Continuity Remain selectively (miss)quotes him as having advocated membership of the EEA before the referendum. He is not, and has never, advocated EEA membership, only the benefits of mutual access. Regardless, my point is that Vote Leave stood on a platform of precisely the opposite, along with the leaders of Remain. It isn't a particularly nuanced point that I'm making here, it's very straightforward. That Continuity Remain gets so exercised about this is indicative of how childish their argument has become. "It only happened because the bigger boys were bigger meanies."

While I don't disagree that the Remain campaign was tulipe, I don't think it's possible to say that this was the sole reason ("end of") for the result.

Certainly, not the only reason because there is (and was) a substantive case for leaving, but the poor quality of the Remain campaign was the primary reason, among the superficial reasons, for their failure to convince voters.

[tomtomagain]

So, which legislation would you have liked us to opt out of, that we don't already have control over?

Personally? None, but then I voted remain. I haven't been left behind.

That's not to say I cannot see it from others perspective.

[tomtomagain]

Well lets see if leaving the EU will make them all better off, because up to now it hasn't been working out too well.

Well it could well do, if not them, then their children.

That net £10B a year needs to be spent somewhere on something. It's not like we'll be getting it back in a tax cut.

And if it doesn't? Then maybe we can look forward to a hard-left government determined to make the rich pay ( aka anyone on more than £30k a year ).