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Tory and Labour MPs plot secret deal to ensure soft Brexit

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    #21
    Originally posted by BrilloPad View Post
    But the parliament IS the people, sire. Chosen from AMONG the people. To speak FOR the people.

    Gracchus (Character) - Quotes

    'Gracchus' lived in the Roman Empire which had its routes in the Roman Republic. In the Roman Republic the Populus (people) was formally the sovereign body, although in practice sovereignty was exercised by the Senate and magistrates.

    The UK does not work like that. Members of Parliament are elected as representatives of the people, but they are not the people themselves. Neither are they delegates of the people. If parliament was the people then the people would be able to mandate the votes in parliament, either by voting themselves, or at a stretch via delegates who could be instantly recalled and replaced (as with Trade Union delegates - or at least that is the theory). But this is not the reality. All the people can do is elect every five years (sometimes more regularly) MPs who will decide for themselves how to vote in parliament.

    Comment


      #22
      Originally posted by original PM View Post
      Indeed.

      No one ever said no more immigration - just some better control of it - using rules we do not have to have ratified by a central european power.

      The main sticking point for me is the trade deals - we cannot rightfully expect to get the same as the EU members however there is no reason why we cannot deal with each individual country - and unless that country has a problem with the trade deal we have in place then no need to change it - but if we do we can do it directly with that country without the EU having a say in it.
      Yes there is. EU member states can't negotiate their own trade deals.

      Comment


        #23
        Originally posted by northernladyuk View Post
        'Gracchus' lived in the Roman Empire which had its routes in the Roman Republic. In the Roman Republic the Populus (people) was formally the sovereign body, although in practice sovereignty was exercised by the Senate and magistrates. ...
        In the Republic the Roman Senate was roughly the equivalent to our House of Lords, and the equivalent of the House of Commons was the plebeian assembly, headed by the Tribunes of the Plebs.

        But arguably, in practice the correspondence was the opposite (despite the Senate comprising aristocrats), because the Senate had the Executive power to propose measures and start things, but the Tribunes of the Plebs had only Tribunician power which meant the power to delay or prevent things (like our House of Lords).

        In the UK constitution the two Houses of Parliament represent the people, and Ministers represent the Crown, although for at least the last three centuries Ministers have by convention been chosen almost exclusively from among those sitting in Parliament and, within that group, from those with an overall majority in an election.

        It's really that simple, so I won't be drawn into a long nitpicking argument about this.
        Work in the public sector? Read the IR35 FAQ here

        Comment


          #24
          Originally posted by OwlHoot View Post
          In the Republic the Roman Senate was roughly the equivalent to our House of Lords, and the equivalent of the House of Commons was the plebeian assembly, headed by the Tribunes of the Plebs.

          But arguably, in practice the correspondence was the opposite (despite the Senate comprising aristocrats), because the Senate had the Executive power to propose measures and start things, but the Tribunes of the Plebs had only Tribunician power which meant the power to delay or prevent things (like our House of Lords).

          In the UK constitution the two Houses of Parliament represent the people, and Ministers represent the Crown, although for at least the last three centuries Ministers have by convention been chosen almost exclusively from among those sitting in Parliament and, within that group, from those with an overall majority in an election.

          It's really that simple, so I won't be drawn into a long nitpicking argument about this.
          So are you saying that parliament is the people?

          Comment


            #25
            Originally posted by northernladyuk View Post
            So are you saying that parliament is the people?
            From The Bill of Rights (1688)

            Bill of Rights [1688]


            1688 CHAPTER 2 1 Will and Mar Sess 2


            An Act declareing the Rights and Liberties of the Subject and Setleing the Succession of the Crowne.

            X1Whereas the Lords Spirituall and Temporall and Comons assembled at Westminster lawfully fully and freely representing all the Estates of the People of this Realme ...
            HTH
            Work in the public sector? Read the IR35 FAQ here

            Comment


              #26
              Originally posted by OwlHoot View Post
              Are you saying that representing something is the same as being something?

              Comment


                #27
                Did you vote Brexit ?

                Originally posted by original PM View Post
                The main sticking point for me is the trade deals - we cannot rightfully expect to get the same as the EU members however there is no reason why we cannot deal with each individual country - and unless that country has a problem with the trade deal we have in place then no need to change it - but if we do we can do it directly with that country without the EU having a say in it.
                What are you talking about?

                We can't negotiate deals with individual EU countries - that's just the whole basis of the EU: a protected enclave but with a level playing field inside.

                As for negotiating with the rest of the world - well guess what:we could always do that. Except that in the EU we could, by sheer collective bargaining power, get a better deal. Now we are just a minnow.

                So basically it's just like before. Only not quite as a good. It's not going to kill us but it is a complete and utter waste of time and money.

                For nothing (sorry for 'Sovereignty')

                Did you realise that when you voted Leave?

                I would bet not
                "Don't part with your illusions; when they are gone you may still exist, but you have ceased to live" Mark Twain

                Comment


                  #28
                  Originally posted by Cirrus View Post
                  What are you talking about?

                  We can't negotiate deals with individual EU countries - that's just the whole basis of the EU: a protected enclave but with a level playing field inside.

                  As for negotiating with the rest of the world - well guess what:we could always do that. Except that in the EU we could, by sheer collective bargaining power, get a better deal. Now we are just a minnow.

                  So basically it's just like before. Only not quite as a good. It's not going to kill us but it is a complete and utter waste of time and money.

                  For nothing (sorry for 'Sovereignty')

                  Did you realise that when you voted Leave?

                  I would bet not
                  Ok

                  So as long as each country does what it's told all will be good.

                  Until it's not.

                  Comment


                    #29
                    Originally posted by Cirrus View Post
                    What are you talking about?

                    We can't negotiate deals with individual EU countries - that's just the whole basis of the EU: a protected enclave but with a level playing field inside.

                    As for negotiating with the rest of the world - well guess what:we could always do that. Except that in the EU we could, by sheer collective bargaining power, get a better deal. Now we are just a minnow.

                    So basically it's just like before. Only not quite as a good. It's not going to kill us but it is a complete and utter waste of time and money.

                    For nothing (sorry for 'Sovereignty')

                    Did you realise that when you voted Leave?

                    I would bet not
                    Really? I think you'll find you're quite wrong.
                    Correct me if necessary, but as an EU member, or even if we're NOT in the EU but ARE in the Customs Union, we're NOT able to negotiate trade deals with anyone else, except through the EU.
                    His heart is in the right place - shame we can't say the same about his brain...

                    Comment


                      #30
                      Originally posted by Mordac View Post
                      Really? I think you'll find you're quite wrong.
                      Correct me if necessary, but as an EU member, or even if we're NOT in the EU but ARE in the Customs Union, we're NOT able to negotiate trade deals with anyone else, except through the EU.
                      Does the UK actually have anyone who can do the negotiations?
                      Brexit is having a wee in the middle of the room at a house party because nobody is talking to you, and then complaining about the smell.

                      Comment

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