Self-assessment: Expenses question

[7specialgems]

I notice that the Personal self-assessment provides box 17 to account for expenses.

As a Company Director who was reimbursed in full by the company for all of my expenses (and paid 45p/mile for my mileage) am I correct in thinking that I do not complete this section?

For clarification, am I correct in my understanding that this section is not to be completed by Directors but instead is provided for people who are trading on their own name to claim back expenses against tax or to claim back the difference in underpaid expenses? (i.e. 25p paid for mileage so 20p claimed).

[ASB]

No you are not correct. Generally you will enter your expenses in the relevant boxes. There is more than one. Cant remember their numbers. You will also enter them somewhere as income (because they area). It will all come out in the wash in the tax calc. I.e. its both added on and taken off so its not charged to tax.

The hmrc guide is pretty good and worth looking through to help resolve these sorts on uncertainties.

[7specialgems]

You will also enter them somewhere as income (because they area)

Really? I lent the business money to pay for its necessities and they paid me back. How is that income?

The hmrc guide is pretty good and worth looking through to help resolve these sorts on uncertainties.

It was the lack of clarity in the PDF publication that led to this question

[ASB]

Because it is is the simple answer.

But, by example, you get a salary of 10k. Off you go on a trip which you spend 1000 on. And claim it from your employer.

Your income is therefore 11, 000. And taxable.

Now. Lets say the 1000 was spent on allowable stuff.

This is claimed on your tax return. And reduces it to 10k. Which is surely what you would expect.

Say you spent the 1k legitimately, but for whatever reasons couldnt claim it. Then it reduces your taxable to 9k. Which is what you would expect.

[malvolio]

Because it is is the simple answer.

But, by example, you get a salary of 10k. Off you go on a trip which you spend 1000 on. And claim it from your employer.

Your income is therefore 11, 000. And taxable.

Now. Lets say the 1000 was spent on allowable stuff.

This is claimed on your tax return. And reduces it to 10k. Which is surely what you would expect.

Say you spent the 1k legitimately, but for whatever reasons couldnt claim it. Then it reduces your taxable to 9k. Which is what you would expect.

Which is why all such expenses are paid for by the company and none of the money goes anywhere near my bank account. Which is even easier...


I've never understood the passion for paying out your own money and claiming it back, but if it makes you happy...

[7specialgems]

Right, I think I am getting to the bottom of this.

Under the employment section, there are two questions relating to expenses:

1. "Have you received any taxable benefits and expense payments from <Your Company Name Ltd> ?"
2. "Do you wish to claim any employment expenses or capital allowances while working for <Your Company Name Ltd>?

The first appears to relate to Benefits in Kind as it is based on values in the P11D.

The second appears to relate to expenses which have not been repaid. This becomes clear when you progress to the "Check your return" section, and this second section is described as "Change expenses which have not been reimbursed".

Given that I have an empty P11D and that all of my expenses have been reimbursed, I make it that both of these sections are zero?

[ASB]

I appreciate your frustration (and ultimately the pointlessness of it all), but without a dispensation:-

Have you received any expenses? Yes.
Do you want t claim any? Yes (oddly those mentioned above).

Given your quote I dont know where youre thoughts on p11d come from.

You should of course have put said expenses on your p11d (probably).

[ASB]

Which is why all such expenses are paid for by the company and none of the money goes anywhere near my bank account. Which is even easier...


I've never understood the passion for paying out your own money and claiming it back, but if it makes you happy...

You are quite right my gartered friend. But the point is the form is intended to cover all possibilities. My employer chooses not to let me loose with their chequebook.

[7specialgems]

I appreciate your frustration (and ultimately the pointlessness of it all), but without a dispensation:-

Have you received any expenses? Yes.
Do you want t claim any? Yes (oddly those mentioned above).

Given your quote I dont know where youre thoughts on p11d come from.

You should of course have put said expenses on your p11d (probably).

I think this is why my accountant describes HRMC documentation as being written in "FAIR" language, that being "Ambiguous Inland Revenue" and the F being an adjective

I am with you now.

The thoughts on the P11D come from HMRC's "help" text that is provided in question bubbles next to each item on the Online return. For most of them on the first expenses option it says "this information is available on your P11D".

I have just experimented with putting the same figure on both parts and, yes, the calculation neutralises itself.

[ASB]

I think this is why my accountant describes HRMC documentation as being written in "FAIR" language, that being "Ambiguous Inland Revenue" and the F being an adjective

I am with you now.

The thoughts on the P11D come from HMRC's "help" text that is provided in question bubbles next to each item on the Online return. For most of them on the first expenses option it says "this information is available on your P11D".

I have just experimented with putting the same figure on both parts and, yes, the calculation neutralises itself.

They may have updated thier guidance. It used to include some words about dispensations.

I am assuming you dont have a dispensation. In which case hmrc expects to see xx on the p11d. Xx on the sa100 as expensee paid to you. And xx as expenses claimed.

In the case where there is a dispensation 0 and 0.

Before prssint the submit button it might be worth having a check with the accountant about the p11d.